Yet another philosophical/religious discussion/rant

JohnnyPsycho · **JohnnyPsycho**

Ugh, I'll have to come back in here when I have more time... I wish I could sit here for a few more minutes to reply and add my thoughts, but I can't right now...

BTW, the Heart Sutra is not a poem, though it is interesting that someone thought of it as one...

Here's an interesting dilemna you guys can think about and discuss while you guys continue spinning your wheels on this religion vs. science discussion (which is funny because they're both the same thing, but I'll get to that when I have more time)...

Is there anything that you would die for?

I've asked this in the last couple of relgion rant/discussions that I've been in, but I never could get a real definitive answer from people. Here's what I'm looking for:

A) Is there anything other than family and loved ones* that you would devote your life to, or even perhaps sacrifice your life to achieve?

B) Take a moment to realize the importance of people within human history who have willingly put their lives on the line or even martyred themselves for a cause, belief, etc.**

C) How much can you truly say that you understand about any religion when you have not yet found anything in this world that you would lay your life down for? Is it really that inconcievable and dangerously liberal to think in those terms, or is it the way in which one knows that they have matured socially?***

D) Is there really a difference between "zealots" and "empassioned believers", or is it just another label that makes us feel good about ourselves? Where is the line that divides selfless self-sacrifice and deluded zealotry?

*in one respect, giving one's life to protect family and loved ones is as basic as it gets, and perhaps it could be argued that it is inbred within humans to put themselves in harms way for their kin. It is a basic behavior seen in many other higher animals, which is why I do not count the "family and loved ones" as being in any way out of the ordinary or of much use in this debate. In fact, the old "family and loved ones" ploy seems like more of a cop-out to me... but if you want to argue for it, by all means knock yourself out.

**Just as there are many people who may look at suicide bombers and other zealots as a dark side to empassioned belief, many ignore history's figures of selflessness (and even, sometimes, martyrdom) such as Martin Luther King, Jr., who knew of the dangers of their beliefs and messages but continued on with courage and willingness to change the world. Imagine a society of people who no longer feel empassioned enough to allow themselves bodily harm in order to make positive change in their world. Without empassioned, revolutionary acts of selflessness and self-sacrifice, most of history's most important milestones would not have happened.

***In other words, is it simply crazy to think that beliefs and causes should be so strongly felt that one must defend and enact it at all costs, or is it childish to believe that one can make changes in the world without risking themselves (bodily, mentally, spritually, or even socially {such as risking one's own reputation among peers}) in the process?

"The question is not how far. The question is, do you possess the constitution, the depth of faith, to go as far as is needed?"
- The Boondock Saints

...damn, I knew I'd end up writing a huge post in here anyway... shoot, now I'm behind on things that need to be done. See what you guys do to me? Sheesh... see you guys in anywhere between a couple days and a couple months (depending on how well I can balance school, work, and free-time)...

XOXO, your friendly neighborhood Devil's Advocate,
JohnnyPsycho
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"The principles you live by create the world you live in; if you change the principles you live by, you will change your world." -Blaine Lee

"I plan to live forever. So far so good." -Steven Wright

counterparadox · **counterparadox**

The differenece between an empassioned believer and a zealot is that an empassioned believer would die for his religion, and a zealot would KILL for his. Zealots refuse to allow other faiths to exist. Zealots believe that their way is the only way, and that their sole purpose in life is to 'save' people. Zealots cause problems. Empassioned Believers have the ability to solve problems. That's the difference.
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anime is teh s uck

Play City of Heroes/Villians? Look me up, Pinnacle server, @C Paradox

JohnnyPsycho · **JohnnyPsycho**

Read your bible, especially the old testament, for the number of times the Israelites killed in the name of God. Hint: look especially at the exploits of a certain King David. He killed Goliath and countless other enemies of the Israelites, plus he circumcised two hundred Phillistines!! Trust me, it's in there! Also look in the Koran and Islamic history at the sometimes bloody disputes between the prophet Muhammad and the city of Mecca, which, oddly enough, ended eventually with the Muslims conquering the city without bloodshed.

For every revolution there's a holy war, and every act of defiance in the face a tyrany there is also terrorism and genocide. How sure can you be that you can tell the difference? Wasn't King David just a zealot as well, or even Moses when he made his followers wander through the desert hell for 40 years?

Again, the question becomes whether you can achieve both the depth of faith and the presence of mind and ethics to determine whether certain acts of destruction are necessary means to a constructive end or whether they are simply destruction for destruction's sake.

Could you ever see yourself killing in the name of what you feel is right and just? Would you ever sacrifice yourself to achieve a dream to better your world?

"I don't believe it is necessary to sacrifice yourself" is a common response that I get, but if that is so, then how can you claim to have a truly mature look at the world around you with such selfish reasoning? A vast majority of religions teach the insignificance of the self in the face of the greater common good. Can you truly face that greater common good and be able to refuse it? I think that point is made even more clear lately with the rise of another religion, that of Patriotism, and of the recent use of our military against certain oppositional nations and political powers to attain that "greater common good".

That's all I got for now, kiddies... again, I'll be able to contribute more to this discussion when I can find the time...
_________________
"The principles you live by create the world you live in; if you change the principles you live by, you will change your world." -Blaine Lee

"I plan to live forever. So far so good." -Steven Wright

counterparadox · **counterparadox**

Well, if you're Christian, then the New Testament is a revision of hte Old Testament, and as such, according to Jesus, killing is NEVER the answer. Besides, your arguements would only work against people that are super-relgious. Seeing as how I'm not, who's to say that I think that the Isrealites were right in killing?

I would die for something I believe in strongly enough (at least, I'd like to think that I would) however, by no means do I want to die, and, at hte moment, there is very little that I would die for willingly. However, I try to keep an open mind about everything.

As for your last argument, I hate our nations sudden fake patriotism and our militarism. We need to revise out foreign policy and start treating other nations like they are nations and not our serfs.

In short, JP, your arguments are only valid against devout patriotic Jews. Meh.
_________________
anime is teh s uck

Play City of Heroes/Villians? Look me up, Pinnacle server, @C Paradox

dougisfunny · **dougisfunny**

I would in a given life threatening situation put my life on the line to try to save most anyone. That is how I'm built. I have never thought all that much of myself and place a higher value on others than myself. SO i believe that to save a so called innocent, I would risk my life. But I don't know if that would count given my self image.
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The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

Spookmonkey · **Spookmonkey**

IF you think about it the bible is about two beings and their ideal paths to the end goal. The old testament was about god; he has a mean streak when you piss him off. He is the god with little mercy that you are taught to fear. The fear is what he uses to keep you on the path of good holyness. The new testament is about THE hippy of hippies, Jesus. He disagreed completely with pop and condemmed killing and other various bad stuff, but always peacefully. He kept you good and holy through love. Fear and Love, Old and New, Father and Son, Powerful leader and hippie son... wow.

God: Nuke them sons of bitches angel of death.

Jesus: No way man, that would kill, that's bad.

God: Damned pussy, can't teach them a lesson without making a few examples.

Jesus: Show them love and they will learn

God: Ugh, fine, tell you what. You go show them love and lets see how they change... *mutters "frickin hippies" under his breath*

Jesus: *pops out of mary*
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"Veni. Vedi. Spooki." - Julius Caesar
I came. I saw. I spooked.

He's better than Pop-Rocks!

dougisfunny · **dougisfunny**

lol
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The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

Force-Attuned_Krogoth · **Force-Attuned_Krogoth**

Is there anything other than family and loved ones that you would devote your life to? Yes. The principle of independent thought, and the opportunity for development, both as individuals and societies. (I am unusually undevoted to the concept of family. I don't consider my family inherently different from anything else on earth.) Everyone has the right to choose. And we can grow better at anything if we want to. Incidentally, this ties into CP's assessment of zealotry. I am willing to lay down my life for these ideals. But that in no way condones laying down the lives of others.

As for my belief in science, I want to make it clear that it is (and this is true for most people, too) a means to an end. We don't know everything. That's plain to see. However, there is no other method by which we learn more. If not for investigation, testing, and retesting, we would not have anything we use today. Science is a process of growth, not a set of beliefs. Rather, if scientists had undying zealotism, they would not be willing to erase the board and start over, as new data often requires. My belief in science is that it works. If you want to call that a religion, go right ahead -- I've never seen anyone say it doesn't, though.
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Krogoth uses Berserk.
Attacks are enhanced but defense weakens.
"Wait, that's not the cure button ... "

dougisfunny · **dougisfunny**

Well, I belive in God. And I'm willing to devote, and lay my life down for that cause. And given that, I haven't found any reason not to believe science. So I have no problem with that. And besides, videogames are proof that a merciful god does exist ^_^.
_________________
The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

counterparadox · **counterparadox**

Science and God do not conflict. If you believe that science disproves God, then you are no better than the Creationists. That is NOT something to be proud of. That is the one religion I don't tolerate. Why? Because they all become biology teachers and refuse to teach Darwinism and I LIKE biology so it's an insult to my personality that they refuse to teach something so cool just because of some false evidence that they think is true.

Grr.
_________________
anime is teh s uck

Play City of Heroes/Villians? Look me up, Pinnacle server, @C Paradox

dougisfunny · **dougisfunny**

He is CP, hear him... Grr
(sorry, i had to. And i have nothing interesting to add so, yeah)
_________________
The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

counterparadox · **counterparadox**

Oh man, if we had Member Titles like on the old board, I'd SO make mine "I am the Paradox. Hear me . . . Grr."
_________________
anime is teh s uck

Play City of Heroes/Villians? Look me up, Pinnacle server, @C Paradox

John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo · **John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo**

Doug: what you mentioned on page 7 was again hypothesis. You can't change the given scientific law without incredibly strong evidence and lots of experiments as proff (or at least near as proof as possible). Yes, there are often rival groups of scientists trying to prove thier hypothesis over others, but they don't decry it as fact until they have a true working theory.

dougisfunny · **dougisfunny**

And yet some people wake up everyday *cough Florida cough* and that is all they see when they look in the mirror.

John, humans and their perceptions are rather limited. Many people stand by the saying the more i know the more questions I have, and as such we may know a bit about how our universe works, in the conditions we have met. The possibility that our laws are wrong is very good. When you look at the speed of light, most would have said it constant, and you can't do anything to change it, then black holes, sending it through hypercooled gas, bending of the time space field gets thrown in and we aren't too sure. Yes it may take a heck of a lot to change a law. But There is also a good chance there is a heck of a lot out there we don't know that can change those laws.
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The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

Zechs · **Zechs**


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