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Toonami Infolink :: View topic - Yet another philosophical/religious discussion/rant
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Shazzan The
Impossibles Max Fleisher's Superman (a.k.a. Roulette) The Real Adventures of Johnny Quest Robotech Sailor Moon DragonBall Z Filmation Superman Batman Superfriends
ReBoot
Ronin Warriors G-Force Powerpuff Girls Batman: The Animated Series Gundam Wing Tenchi Muyo! Universe in Tokyo Superman Outlaw Star Big O CardCaptors Mobile Suit Gundam
O8th
MS Team DragonBall Batman Beyond Gundam 0080 Zoids: Zero Hamtaro Zoids: Chaotic Century Guardian Force G Gundam He-Man and the Masters of the Universe Transformers:
Armada
G.I. Joe .hack//Sign Yu Yu Hakusho Rurouni Kenshin QuickTime .mov MOV AVI .avi MPEG .mpg Movies movie Videos Clips Sounds articles rants essays images files CNX inner
circle
cn2 revolution Japan japanese multimedia saban funimation toei graz harmony gold mainframe Tyler Zogg TylerL
How dare you reply while my parents are out of the house and I'm looking at porn! I'll get to reading your post, and most likely replying tomorrow morning. Peace out, cockbite. _________________ This space left intentionally blank.
Thu Jul 17, 2003 10:33 pm
John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo
Joined: Nov 13, 2002
Post subject:
*hits thread*
It worked! _________________ This space left intentionally blank.
Thu Jul 17, 2003 10:33 pm
John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo
Joined: Nov 13, 2002
Post subject: Another freaking long post...
I said unsound. As in the theory of God is unsound, as FAK explained in length earlier. The big bang being a miracle thing--we've all heard that one before. But again, if it never happened, if we interracted in dimensions out of time, would you know the difference? I'm sure FAK will go more into this when he gets back, and how no matter how any universe was formed, many of its inhabitants would find thier circumstances "miraculous" simply because the odds were against thier specific form of existence. I'm not saying that science says that a supreme diety doesn't exist, just that it is hella unlikely, and that it is indeed, appearantly createed to explain only one thing (think back to the roman gods, for example. We've just gotten rid of all of them except for creation and the rest of the stuff we don't yet understand.
Life exists because of the inevitability that chemical sequence A will occur out of trillions of others, eventaully. When the given odds of something happening in a cubic meter, are 1 in a trillion per hour, it doesn't matter when there are millions of cubic meters for said reaction to occur, and limitless hours. Then we hear about these "intellectauls" who guessed that in twenty years we could figure out what happened billions of years ago, trillions of miles away. Simply because science hasn't found these answers yet, doesn't mean it won't, or that Christian scientists won't just say, "well who do you made the ultra-jumbo singularity?" I'm guessing that won't be the first time something like that's happened. It took a lot more than 20 years for religion to form, and create easy answers to all of life's questions. Up until Judhaism, there were thousands and thousands of years before they even abbandoned the [insert common natural phenomenon here] gods, and Even Christianity took a few hundred years to lay its foundation.
JohnnyPsycho wrote:
...Even if the constants were to have become different, if Gravity worked differently than it already does, that would really change nothing.
Right there, the point I was trying to make. Our existence isn't necesserily the cause of a higher being because the circumstances for our existence the way it is are right, which kind of negates the "seeming to be an intelligent force behind the universe" argument, as we have a rather slanted view of all possible existences.
Quote:
Which is why you naturally have trouble in theological discussion, because faith is not based on what you know or what you can understand, but is based upon the concept that you will never understand, and that that's okay. This is why many people of science, who base their lives upon what they can observe, are so frustrated by religion, which is based upon what can never be observed. Because of this, you can only believe faith to be a coping mechanism to make things more easily understandable. The same is said of science.
Thank you, so very much. The entire religion stuff starts to make sense now. I have to say, though, that it's not for me then. To me, the point of life is understanding. Although I find slight irony in making explainations through God, then defending them.
WIRED issue wrote:
The more scientists testily insisted that the big bang was unfathomable, the more they sounded like medieval priests saying, "Don't ask me what made God." Researchers, prominently Alan Guth of MIT, began to assert that the big bang could be believed only if its mechanics could be explained. Indeed, Guth went on to propose such an explanation. Suffice it to say that, while Guth asserts science will eventually figure out the cause, he still invokes unknown physical laws in the prior condition. And no matter how you slice it, calling on unknown physical laws sounds awfully like appealing to the supernatural.
That part is true. At that point, everything gets thrown out the window and we have to guess what set those pre-universe conditions, if science can't figure it out, God is just as viable an option as say, space aliens from the future, although, then God would've been throwing darts at random, blidfolded, hoping to hit a bull's eye that the singularity would ever unfold.
Quote:
Because the number zero exists, God exists, because if nothingness has existance, that is, if nothingness can be conceptualized, which goes against the very basis of what nothingness should be, then of course something impossible to our rationalizing of the world would exist. Because the impossible can be conceptualized, the impossible can exist. If nothingness can have existance, then all the rules we've come up with go out the window, and yes, emptiness is form, and form is emptiness. I really didn't think I'd have to explain that, but apparently I did.
Okay, I'll pose a question. How many cars are parked outside in my driveway right now? None. How is assigning a symbol to this number of vehicles contemplation of nothingness. Yes it's impossible to ponder nothing, but simply existing, and therefore lacking the ability to comteplate nothingness, and that our brains can make thier own random creations doesn't mean that the impossible will, or even can happen. Nothingness doesn't have existence, that's the part that we can't wrap our minds around. Emptiness being form, doesn't make form emptiness. An apple is a fruit. A fruit is not necesserily an apple.
Concerning curving light stuff:
Quote:
..."But if that were true, light would be able to change direction on a whim, and no one's ever seen that..."
You said it, not me. And light doesn't have to be designed that way. If you're floating freely in space, it's not very easy to change direction.
Quote:
Wrong. Light seems to travel only in a set path because it was designed that way. It is through its interaction with forces outside of itself that it is able to explore and determine for itself where it will go. Humans are no different, because our forms are dependent upon certain physical laws, but through interaction with our evironment we produce self-determined ways of interaction, and choose paths that may or may not work toward our physical advantage. We all know that light can change direction or magnetude by colliding with or interacting with outside forces, because we've all seen a rainbow, we all percieve this thing called "color" (except for a few unlucky individuals, whose perceptions of the world around them are further hindered by inablity to distinguish certain wavelegths of ligth, or "color-blindness"), and we've all seen light bend in a glass of water. But can that be thrown in as a simple act of physics? Who's to say that a beam of light doesn't decide to travel in its path because it wants to interact and bend, and that its purpose then becomes to see how much it can reflect and refract. Perhaps this is a conscious decision not to simply follow a path that will yeild very little except returning to its point of origin. And even if, in the end, it's true purpose is to seek its origin, the ability for it to further explore and determine alternate paths is still there. So, for just a minute, imagine yourself as a beam of light...
FAK will love this part. He's a real quantum physics buff.
Quote:
So, in the end, what I meant by people cheating themselves by not believing in God is that people who can live only within the realm of the observable become withdrawn from exploring anything outside of it. And people who wish only to put their trust in that which is outside of their realm of understanding are opening themselves for disappointment and danger. Like old Alphy Einstien said, religion without science is blind, and science without religion is lame.
Meh, I don't need religion to consider other possibilites. I trust what I can see for myself, and try to account for what I can't, or try to see that.
Quote:
"The Big Bang. Dark Matter. Cosmology is ruled by miraculous, invisible forces. Talk about blind faith."
I never said miraculous forces controlled the universe, just those we don't understand, yet. If you want to associate the two, that's your business. _________________ This space left intentionally blank.
Fri Jul 18, 2003 12:22 am
Nobuyuki
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject: Re: Another freaking long post...
John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo wrote:
Meh, I don't need religion to consider other possibilites. I trust what I can see for myself, and try to account for what I can't, or try to see that.
Using what, exactly?
And wouldn't that be just a different form of religion?
...merely a simple man asking simple questions... _________________ "When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."- C.S. Lewis
"Superman can't be emo. He can't cut himself."-CP
Fri Jul 18, 2003 1:29 am
John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo
Joined: Nov 13, 2002
Post subject:
Technology, for one. If that fails for the time, random synapses bumping into eachother will hopefully come up with an adequate solution. _________________ This space left intentionally blank.
Fri Jul 18, 2003 12:17 pm
JohnnyPsycho
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Post subject:
There's another problem with the supposed "learned man of science", and that is that despite the fact that he may believe himself to be a man who can only believe in what scientific observation tells him, it is not always their own scientific observations.
When was the last time you discovered any laws of thermodynamics? How do you know that evolution exists? Have you done any of the research, calculation, and experimentation yourself? I'd say it's very doubtful that anything you know about science hasn't come from a text book or specially pre-prepared science lab experiments.
What I'm getting at here is that all of your beliefs about how the universe works is based upon what other people tell you. Sure, there are things that we all can observe for ourselves on a daily basis, like that odd parlour trick called "gravity", but how can you be certain that an atom exists? Have you ever witnessed one first hand? Did you develop and build your own electron microscopes or radio telescopes?
Take a moment to think (and I know how you are, Bono... seriously sit down and think about this one!) about how much in your textbooks can be taken seriously. Why is it that a guy at MIT can make theories about black holes and other cosmic phenomenon as if seemingly pulling it out of his ass, and yet no one questions him? The language of mathematics and science are extremely specialized and complex, and take lifetimes to achieve proper understandings of all of the basics upon which such "outlandish" theories are built. Have you fully figured out the mathematical equations and mechanics that create a laser? Could you say that you could at any moment fully comprehend, down to the very math, how a worm hole can "theoretically" exist?
Therein lies where many people whose lives are built upon faith come into conflict with science, and yet they also have the most in common with it as well. Just like religion during the dark ages, the "knowledge" is held only by the choice few who are capable of reading, deciphering, and fully exploiting the language of science. And the rest of us are given quaint, user-friendly examples in our textbooks and our TV documentaries to calm the rest of us who can't or haven't yet fully mastered the language. Documentaries on the evolution of dinosaurs and highschool chemistry experiments are to the masses of today what the passion plays and church sermons were to the people living in medieval Europe. The ceremonies of the shaman has been replaced with Mr. Wizard and Beakman's World. The saints replaced with Nobel Prize winners, and Jesus and Moses with Einstein and Newton.
You do not gain your knowledge from yourself, but you inherit it from others. You do not become disciplined by your own work, but expand, sometimes hap-hazardly, and sometimes without taking into consideration just how it was that you got to this point, and why you so desperately need to go to the next step. Is science really just like a virus, ever growing and needing of more and more theories and concepts to fuel its need to completely consume the human psyche?
Science may allow you to expand its own views on the universe, but it is always a specialized group of science "gurus" that decide what is allowed and is to be fully indoctrinated as scientific fact. In the end, if the majority of the "scientific community" (aka: Science's "Vatican") does not agree with your findings, then your theories are ridiculed.
Your "knowledge" about the universe is just as much based upon heresay, conjecture, and blind faith in the word of people you've never met as the people sitting in those pews every Sunday, praising the names of prophets and teachers whom they have never met either.
...and that's all i got for right now... _________________ "The principles you live by create the world you live in; if you change the principles you live by, you will change your world." -Blaine Lee
"I plan to live forever. So far so good." -Steven Wright
Fri Jul 18, 2003 1:06 pm
JohnnyPsycho
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Post subject:
no, wait, I got something more...
Except from Jurassic Park wrote:
"...most kinds of power require a substantial sacrifice by whoever wants the power. There is an apprenticeship, a discipline lasting many years...whatever it is you seek, you have to put in the time, the practice, the effort...and once you have attained it, it is your power...it is literally the result of your discipline.
But scientific power is like inherited wealth: attained without discipline. You read what others have done, and you take the next step...there is no discipline lasting many decades. There is no mastery: old scientists are ignored...cheat, lie, falsify—it doesn't matter. Not to you, or to your colleagues. No one will criticize you. No one has any standards...and because you can stand on the shoulders of giants, you can accomplish something quickly. You don't even know exactly what you have done, but already you have reported it, patented it, and sold it.
I'll make it simple. A karate master does not kill people with his bare hands. He does not lose his temper and kill his wife. The person who kills is the person who has no discipline, no restraint, and who has purchased his power...and that is the kind of power that science fosters, and permits...
The basic idea of science—that there was a new way to look at reality, that it was objective, that it did not depend on your beliefs or your nationality, that it was rational—that idea was fresh and exciting back then...the medieval world...fell before science...this was because the medieval world didn't really work any more. It didn't work economically, intellectually, and it didn't fit the new world that was emerging
But now...science is the belief system that is hundreds of years old. And, like the medieval system before it, science is starting not to fit the world any more...has attained so much power that its practical limits begin to be apparent...through science, billions of us live in one small world, densely packed and intercommunicating. But science cannot help us decide what to do with that world, or how to live. Science can make a nuclear reactor, but it cannot tell us not to build it...and our world starts to seem polluted in fundamental ways...because of ungovernable science.
Science has claimed the power to eventually control everything, through its understanding of natural laws. But in the twentieth century, that claim has been shattered beyond repair. First, Heisenberg's uncertainty principle set limits on what we could know about the subatomic world...then Gödel's theorem set similar limits to mathematics, the formal language of science...now we know that what we call 'reason' is just an arbitrary game. It's not special, in the way we thought it was.
Science has always said that it may not know everything now but it will know, eventually. But now we see that isn't true. It is an idle boast. As foolish, and as misguided, as the child who jumps off a building because he believes he can fly...fifty years ago, everyone was gaga over the atomic bomb. That was power. No one could imagine anything more. Yet, a bare decade after the bomb, we began to have genetic power. And genetic power is far more potent than atomic power. And it will be in everyone's hands...cheap labs for terrorists and dictators. And that will force everyone to ask the same question—What should I do with my power?—which is the very question science says it cannot answer."
- Ian Malcolm, from the novel by Michael Crichton
...and before you bring it up, I will... perhaps my concept of "God" is based upon what everyone else has told me what "God" should be, and perhaps I have taken that information, selectively edited out what seemed conflicting (or perhaps not conflicting enough) and formed it into what I wish to believe that "God" would be. But what I know for a fact, that is unbiased by anything that I have been told by God before, is that there will always exist that which is of greater magnitude than myself, and because of that, all that I may not touch or own or be able to exert any power upon shall be known as God, for it is that same greatness that drives myself to try and further attain it. Take it any way you want. Perhaps science is God to some. Perhaps the Northern Lights are a manifestation of God to others. And even if you want to get psychoanalytical and pronounce that God is what humanity wishes to attain within itself, it does not dull what it is that God is or represents. Use all the reasoning you want, because, as I've pointed out before, God is beyond your grasp, and will always be that way. Question its existance, but it changes nothing. _________________ "The principles you live by create the world you live in; if you change the principles you live by, you will change your world." -Blaine Lee
"I plan to live forever. So far so good." -Steven Wright
Fri Jul 18, 2003 1:26 pm
counterparadox
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject:
I lose my faith in God by going to church and seeing old people that are just there to cover their asses. In case there IS a heaven, they want to be abel to say "I went to church every week, let me in." But that does not make them good people. (My parents force me ot go to church every week, even though they know it weakens my faith.)
I lose my faith every week in church while I sit there and think about how, the Pope is 'infalible', yet he's a human. And all humans are fallible. Yet his word is the word of God. I think that's crap. Popes have made tons of mistakes. Because they are human. I don't see them as anymore special than anyone else.
I lose my faith by seeing preists that don't live out the word of God.
I lose my faith by seeing the church refusing to take logic into account with certain issuse. Such as birth control. The sperm will die inside of you if it's not used, and so if you use birth control, or mastribate, that's 'killing' someone? But it's going to die ANYWAYS. So why not go with the natural instinct now and then, thus releaving tthe instinct, and simultanesouly NOT bringing new life into the world, which would cauze society to crumble further. (When 13 year old girls WANT to have children, and all these girls come from low income houseing, and thus their children perpetuate the problems found in our socitey, that's not an issue to take into account?)
I lose my faith when I see people killing in the name of God.
I lose my fait when I see Pat Robertson declare that the Supreme Court needs prayers because they are going to Hell for making Sodomy legal, as if people wouldn't do it simply because it wasn't legal.
I lose my faith when I see that Gandhi was a true Christian, even though he didn't believe in Christ.
I lose my faith when I see that the world is full of assholes and that ignorance reigns and that our country is crumbling because people don't CARE about anything, let alone Religion. Let alone the actual politics of our politicians. It's an issue if a politician sleeps with someone that isn't his wife, but it's not when Haliberton gets the right to re-build the oil feilds in Iraq.
I lose my faith when people refuse to admit that evolution and Genesis do not contradict. When there are Biology teachers that are Creationists and refuse to teach Darwinism.
I lose my faith at all of this, and none of it is science related. Except maye that last one. However, it's not related in the sense that Bono's thoughts are.
I planned for this to be 3 sentences long. Look what you made me do. ^_^ _________________ anime is teh s uck
Play City of Heroes/Villians? Look me up, Pinnacle server, @C Paradox
Fri Jul 18, 2003 1:58 pm
John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo
Joined: Nov 13, 2002
Post subject:
Well, I'll be gone for a couple days. Expect a lengthy response when I get back. _________________ This space left intentionally blank.
Fri Jul 18, 2003 4:20 pm
Nobuyuki
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject:
John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo wrote:
Well, I'll be gone for a couple days. Expect a lengthy response when I get back.
Does that include an answer to my second question? _________________ "When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."- C.S. Lewis
"Superman can't be emo. He can't cut himself."-CP
Fri Jul 18, 2003 9:38 pm
JohnnyPsycho
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Post subject:
Okay, well then while Bono's gone, I think I'll post some actual religious/philosophical content in here, as opposed to the usual "defending/opposing religion/theology/science" stuff...
This will be considered homework for anyone who wishes to be taken seriously in a debate about religious thought and its bearings within our society. You do not have to subscribe to any of the beliefs or teachings, but an attempt must be made to understand, and often understanding can only be achieved when the ego has been shed, and all of your predjudices or past experience is ignored. Like all Buddhist teachings, one must take in the message without any expectations or pre-existing conditions, to take it in freely. What you take from it will be your own.
The following is a translation of one of the most important teachings in Buddhism, the Heart Sutra. In it, I believe one will find some of the things that I have been talking about, especially the idea that all that we are told by our senses isn't the entire truth, and that there lies much more within our universe than can be expressed by our understanding.
Quote:
Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva
when practicing deeply the Prajna Paramita
perceives that all five skandhas are empty
and is saved from all suffering and distress.
Shariputra,
form does not differ from emptiness,
emptiness does not differ from form.
That which is form is emptiness,
that which is emptiness form.
The same is true of feelings,
perceptions, impulses, consciousness.
Shariputra,
all dharmas are marked with emptiness;
they do not appear or disappear,
are not tainted or pure,
do not increase or decrease.
Therefore, in emptiness no form, no feelings,
perceptions, impulses, consciousness.
No eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind;
no color, no sound, no smell, no taste, no touch,
no object of mind;
no realm of eyes
and so forth until no realm of mind consciousness.
No ignorance and also no extinction of it,
and so forth until no old age and death
and also no extinction of them.
No suffering, no origination,
no stopping, no path, no cognition,
also no attainment with nothing to attain.
The Bodhisattva depends on Prajna Paramita
and the mind is no hindrance;
without any hindrance no fears exist.
Far apart from every perverted view one dwells in Nirvana.
In the three worlds
all Buddhas depend on Prajna Paramita
and attain Anuttara Samyak Sambodhi.
Therefore know that Prajna Paramita
is the great transcendent mantra,
is the great bright mantra,
is the utmost mantra,
is the supreme mantra
which is able to relieve all suffering
and is true, not false.
So proclaim the Prajna Paramita mantra,
proclaim the mantra which says:
Avalokiteshvara, the Bodhisattva of Compassion, meditating deeply on Perfection of Wisdom, saw clearly that the five aspects of human existence are empty*, and so released himself from suffering. Answering the monk Sariputra, he said this:
Body is nothing more than emptiness,
emptiness is nothing more than body.
The body is exactly empty,
and emptiness is exactly body.
The other four aspects of human existence --
feeling, thought, will, and consciousness --
are likewise nothing more than emptiness,
and emptiness nothing more than they.
All things are empty:
Nothing is born, nothing dies,
nothing is pure, nothing is stained,
nothing increases and nothing decreases.
So, in emptiness, there is no body,
no feeling, no thought,
no will, no consciousness.
There are no eyes, no ears,
no nose, no tongue,
no body, no mind.
There is no seeing, no hearing,
no smelling, no tasting,
no touching, no imagining.
There is nothing seen, nor heard,
nor smelled, nor tasted,
nor touched, nor imagined.
There is no ignorance,
and no end to ignorance.
There is no old age and death,
and no end to old age and death.
There is no suffering, no cause of suffering,
no end to suffering, no path to follow.
There is no attainment of wisdom,
and no wisdom to attain.
The Bodhisattvas rely on the Perfection of Wisdom,
and so with no delusions,
they feel no fear,
and have Nirvana here and now.
All the Buddhas,
past, present, and future,
rely on the Perfection of Wisdom,
and live in full enlightenment.
The Perfection of Wisdom is the greatest mantra.
It is the clearest mantra,
the highest mantra,
the mantra that removes all suffering.
This is truth that cannot be doubted.
Say it so:
Gaté,
gaté,
paragaté,
parasamgaté.
Bodhi!
Svaha!
Which means...
Gone,
gone,
gone over,
gone fully over.
Awakened!
So be it!
Numerous translations and interpretations exist, but the message is usually interpreted the same.
"Emptiness is the usual translation for the Buddhist term Sunyata (or Shunyata). It refers to the fact that no thing -- including human existence -- has ultimate substantiality, which in turn means that no thing is permanent and no thing is totally independent of everything else. In other words, everything in this world is interconnected and in constant flux. A deep appreciation of this idea of emptiness thus saves us from the suffering caused by our egos, our attachments, and our resistance to change and loss."
This is an excerpt from the Hagakure, the "Book of the Samurai" by Yamamoto Tsunetomo...
Hagakure wrote:
Our bodies are given life from the midst of nothingness. Existing where there is nothing is the meaning of the phrase, "Form is emptiness." That all things are provided for by nothingness is the meaning of the phrase, "Emptiness is form."' One should not think that these are two separate things .
...not bad for a lazy Catholic kid at 5 in the morning, eh? _________________ "The principles you live by create the world you live in; if you change the principles you live by, you will change your world." -Blaine Lee
"I plan to live forever. So far so good." -Steven Wright
Sat Jul 19, 2003 4:23 am
Force-Attuned_Krogoth
Joined: Nov 10, 2002
Post subject: I'm very much back now
Fortunately, JP has covered some new ground. However, he refuses to back up his assertions that a higher being exists, just because we do. Why must there be an intelligent tinkerer who makes the universe run? If it's not necessarily intelligent, what makes it so much greater than us? If my previous implication that intelligence is important is considered hubric, then what in any crevasses of your mind do you consider to be great?
Also, there's the whole "Newtonian Motion" thing. If photons were "Designed" to be intelligent, then how would that be different from calling their motions a probability? I am not saying that God exists or doesn't, I stand firmly by my statements that his existence is moot. If I don't believe in God, the Universe still runs. I think that includes what you call the basis of religion, as something that I can't comprehend. I believe the world works. I have no proof of that, it's just an emotional tendency to try to have control of myself. However, it does not matter WHY the world works, but HOW can be useful. Therefore, I investigate the "how"s. What happened before the Big Bang? What does it matter? It's already happened, and physics is not changing, only being refined. Sigma F always has been, and (I hope and live like) always will be approximately equal to m*A. It doesn't matter if something outside makes it so, I can test this "god" and it always holds true. For another description of this, read the first page.
Finally, I'd just like to say, "anthropic principle, dammit! " _________________ Krogoth uses Berserk.
Attacks are enhanced but defense weakens.
"Wait, that's not the cure button ... "
Sat Jul 19, 2003 9:42 pm
JohnnyPsycho
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Post subject:
Don't worry, FAK, I'll keep it short, because I believe I've really said all I really need to say about certain things, and that delving furthing into it would just feel like I'm repeating myself...
In my belief system, things greater than myself exist, and therefore God exists. I know it may seem extremely simplistic and stupid to you, but because I know things greater than humanity exist, I can very easily claim those to be of "higher power". The planets, the freakin' sun, all of those can very easily be a "higher power", because they are of much greater magnetude than humanity will ever dream of achieving. And, if there are powers higher than us, then surely there would be at least one or two forces greater than those. By greater, I don't necessarily mean in physical size or power, but perhaps some other sort of "greatness". I'm not even going to go so far as to say that "God" is a conscious entity that controls the ebb and flow of the universe. In my own bizarre sense of philosophical-logic, God isn't an eternal "tinkerer" who creates and destroys according to His plan. God might not even have a conscious plan. Hell, maybe that original, mysterious "singularity" that was the origin of the universe was God...
Which comes to one of the theological "theories" that I have developed over time...
"Slumbering God Theory": the idea that God really does not exist as a consciousness that watches over everything and rights wrongs or sets forth the balance in the universe (if one exists). God is that fabled balance of the universe, or more precisely, the universe itself. Afterall, what could be greater in span or power than the entire freakin' universe? Worshipping God isn't worshipping some master craftsman that shaped the universe, but to marvel at the wonders of our universe itself.
So where do all the miracles, all the "devine interventions", all the burning bushes with booming voices come from? Perhaps from some other source, a source that realizes what is needed at certain points in human history's development and chose to intervene. Perhaps a source that knows not to interfere with human growth too much, but still knows when its intervention is needed. Perhaps a source that actually listens to the prayers of the people on this planet, overseeing the development of the planet itself. Maybe angels and the ancient gods really do exist... beings with greater knowledge of the workings of the universe around us, with the ability to manipulate certain natural laws and probabilities to assist when necessary.
...Or maybe the angels and devils of our myths and religions are just intergalactic troublemakers, completely ignoring the old "Prime Directive" (to use a Trekkie term). Whatever, it don't matter... Perhaps the scientist in all of us questions why bother praying to a God that doesn't seem to answer. Probably because there is a good chance that someone is listening, and because there has never been any record of prayer actually doing any harm.
But it doesn't matter... Yes, you can exist without a belief in God, you can live without going to church or praying once. The difference is that the development of the spiritual side of oneself seems often to allow better ability to cope with all of life's ups and downs. Science is often seen by many as being cold and distancing, because it is a school of thought that expresses the importance of the world outside of ourselves. I have always seen religion as being an important foundation for the development of spirituality, which is the expression of the internal world of the human psyche.
Some cynics often believe that it would be great to finally disavow God all together and get rid of that often conflicting thing called religion. The problem is, the world is far too complex for science alone to cope with. All the mathematical probabilities can't point down exactly what a person's reaction will be to a death in the family, or tell us how to cope with depression, etc. Science can't tell someone how they should live their lives, giving them moral foundations, etc. People have struggled to disavow God for as long as they have believed in God.
It's normal to have no faith in a superior being that has control over our lives, or to rationalize it into some psychological explanation. Just realize that God will continue to exist, even if you don't want to believe in It. God exists because people like me feel it, know it, believe in it, have faith in it.
Honestly, I can no more give evidence that God exists than to tell you simply that, yes, God exists. To go any further than that would be meaningless, because it would do nothing to change your view.
When I get people going on a theological discussion, it always falls back to the existance/non-existance of God. The point is moot. Who the fuck cares if you do or don't believe in God. The point in these type of discussions should be how humanity has learned to cope with the impressiveness of the universe around it.
Also, FAK, in case you missed it, I gave you and everyone else in this board a homework assignment. From this point on, I want to steer the discussion away from whether or not certain philosophical or spiritual beliefs are valid, and more toward how certain religious beliefs work in human society as a whole.
That's my assignment and challenge for all of you. Debating the existance or need of God is a debate that will never be cleared up in our lifetime. In my opinion, God exists simply because the debate will always question His existance, throughout the existance of humanity. If we could for once question whether or not we exist... _________________ "The principles you live by create the world you live in; if you change the principles you live by, you will change your world." -Blaine Lee
"I plan to live forever. So far so good." -Steven Wright
Mon Jul 21, 2003 3:50 am
counterparadox
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject:
I've experienced WAY too many coincidences within a 27 hour period (or even dare I say 33 hour?) this weekend to deny some sort of controlling power. I call it fate. I'm not entirely sure if it'd God or not. But the amount of things that happened and hte way they happened and the thoughts they caused was like . . . .divine. Well, not that good, or spiritual, possibly because I'm not in touch with my spiritual side, but I'm kind of freaked out right now. _________________ anime is teh s uck
Play City of Heroes/Villians? Look me up, Pinnacle server, @C Paradox
Mon Jul 21, 2003 8:18 am
Force-Attuned_Krogoth
Joined: Nov 10, 2002
Post subject:
CP, never underestimate Finagle's Law*.
As for what JP admonished us for, I wholly understand that there are people out there who NEED religion in order to cope with life. However, I also assert that I don't need it and they have to reason to push it upon me. Also, though religions tend to help individuals, they can very easily screw up large groups of people. To quote Rufus (the 13th apostle), "people should have ideas, not beliefs. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. People live for it, people die for it." Personally, I find it impossible to say whether the pros of mass religions outweigh the cons. For example,
Pro
People feel loved, and therefore more confident
People think they have outside support, and will thus try harder
People believe that empathy determines whether they get punished after life, and thus use the golden rule
People live in a structured, simpler manner
Con
People think that everyone else is in the wrong and must be corrected immediately
People believe that compassion is more important than thinking
People believe that thinking is for god, not humans
"Man is forced to accept masochism as his ideal, under the threat that sadism is the only alternative"
People are taught that everyone is equal
People don't give themselves credit
People are taught that human evolution is bad
*Law of Averages: given a large set of attempts, reality will tend to reflect calculated probabilities.
Finagle's Law: the Law of Averages says nothing about small sets. _________________ Krogoth uses Berserk.
Attacks are enhanced but defense weakens.
"Wait, that's not the cure button ... "
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