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Toonami Infolink :: View topic - Yet another philosophical/religious discussion/rant
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Impossibles Max Fleisher's Superman (a.k.a. Roulette) The Real Adventures of Johnny Quest Robotech Sailor Moon DragonBall Z Filmation Superman Batman Superfriends
ReBoot
Ronin Warriors G-Force Powerpuff Girls Batman: The Animated Series Gundam Wing Tenchi Muyo! Universe in Tokyo Superman Outlaw Star Big O CardCaptors Mobile Suit Gundam
O8th
MS Team DragonBall Batman Beyond Gundam 0080 Zoids: Zero Hamtaro Zoids: Chaotic Century Guardian Force G Gundam He-Man and the Masters of the Universe Transformers:
Armada
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circle
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But again, there was no law on the speed of light. And even if there was, scientific laws are changed all the time. Science says that there's a good chance that something's right, not that it is right.
As FAK says, the Universe works. And as long as those laws work for all applicable purposes, they don't need to be changed, and probably won't be noticed.[/i] _________________ This space left intentionally blank.
Sun Aug 24, 2003 9:16 pm
John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo
Joined: Nov 13, 2002
Post subject:
Mmmm... broken thread... _________________ This space left intentionally blank.
Sun Aug 24, 2003 9:18 pm
Force-Attuned_Krogoth
Joined: Nov 10, 2002
Post subject:
I hate it when people say, "the more I know, the more questions I have," and then don't bother to learn more because they think it's annoying. How many of these new questions are practically important? After a bit, it starts decreasing dramatically. This quote is just a cop-out, because the only drawback to learning is that it doesn't end.
I have no idea how the comment about Floridians pertains to this discussion.
Yes, human perceptions are limited. Yes, there may be totally fuckin weird stuff out there that blows our theories out of the water. Sure, some of our basic theories may be utterly incorrect. Does that mean we shouldn't try to learn as much as we can? The further we progress, the more we can study, and the more we know. The beauty of the scientific method is that, if something goes wrong, it can be fixed. Science is simply a means to the end of understanding the world around us (and, if possible, exploiting it), not a set of laws that the Universe must follow because we think it should. _________________ Krogoth uses Berserk.
Attacks are enhanced but defense weakens.
"Wait, that's not the cure button ... "
Mon Aug 25, 2003 7:32 am
JohnnyPsycho
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Post subject:
Force-Attuned_Krogoth wrote:
Yes, human perceptions are limited. Yes, there may be totally fuckin weird stuff out there that blows our theories out of the water. Sure, some of our basic theories may be utterly incorrect. Does that mean we shouldn't try to learn as much as we can? The further we progress, the more we can study, and the more we know. The beauty of the scientific method is that, if something goes wrong, it can be fixed. Science is simply a means to the end of understanding the world around us (and, if possible, exploiting it), not a set of laws that the Universe must follow because we think it should.
Yay FAK!! I think the exact same way. That's what I've been trying to get at with my "five-dimensions of knowing the Universe" theory. I certainly have nothing against science and the scientific method, I just prefer to let people open up their horizons a bit more...
John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo wrote:
JohnnyPsycho wrote:
Here's an interesting dilemna you guys can think about and discuss while you guys continue spinning your wheels on this religion vs. science discussion (which is funny because they're both the same thing, but I'll get to that when I have more time)...
No, they're not. Haven't you been paying attention? At best, theyt're similar. Jeez, one person stumbles upon a half-truthful analogy, and everyone jums of board.
...like this joker.
Really, though, people get extremely insulted when you call science a religion, which just makes me laugh because they don't realize that a religion is, simply, a way in which one relates to their world, a knowledge of how the world works and the way in which they relate to it. It includes science, organized religion, and even the religions of small oral-traditional societies (ie: "Nature-based" or "Tribal" religions, where the stories and teachings of religion play an absolute vital role upon the survival of the people and of their society). What you're having a problem with is relating science, the art of observing and making theorizations based upon the observable, with spirituality, which is mostly inference of how the internal (ie: spirit, soul, chi, electrical currents, the mind, conscience, etc.) both affects and is affected by the external (the cycles of the moon, the tides, the position of planets, the actions of spirits, the actions of people, etc.).
Many of you also seem to be under the impression that all religions remain completely unchangeable in their beliefs. If that were true, there would be no Protestants, right? Or even Christians. Or Buddhists. Or Muslims. Or even Jews and Hindus for that matter. Point is, as the world grows and changes, so do religions. Do not take the actions of some near-sighted conservatives as being the actions of the entire spiritual world.
I also want to point out that, despite the popular DOGMA reference, beliefs do grow and change with time. I've said it before and I'll say it again, major religions are great foundations to find one's own beliefs and understand their own personal spirituality. I can also use myself as an example of this, as while I have grown up learning both about Catholicism and Native American spirituality (more specifically, the Medewin religion of the Three Fires (Ojibwe, Potawatomi, and Odawa) people), I can honestly say that my own spirtual faith has only grown with time. True, I don't go to church as much as I used to, but then again I was always one who liked to question ceremony and tradition while understanding the importance of both. I'm not saying that just because I'm a lazy Catholic that that's the natural progression for every Catholic. I'm just saying that to truly have a deep faith in anything, it is often prudent to see what it's like "on the outside". And yes, I have realized a sense of loss in not seeking out the spiritual side of my life as much as I had in the past, but every spiritual journey should have some rough spots to help keep a perspective on ourselves.
Also, to the people who seem bent upon placing the "religion vs. science" debate back upon the whole "creationism vs. evolution" battlefield, I want you to do some research on a little-known scientific school of thought called Intelligent Design that has actually become more and more popular among paleontologists and other members of the scientific community.
Quote:
Intelligent Design is a scientific disagreement with the claim of evolutionary theory that natural phenomena are not designed. ID claims that natural laws and chance alone are not adequate to explain all natural phenomena. Evidence that is empirically detectable in nature suggests that design is the best current explanation for a variety of natural systems, particularly irreducibly complex living systems.
Intelligent Design is an intellectual movement that includes a scientific research program for investigating intelligent causes and that challenges naturalistic explanations of origins which currently drive science education and research.
um... okay, that's all i got for right now... i though I would go back even further and answer some questions or remarks that I didn't get to earlier because of my spotty schedule, but I'm a very, very lazy person. I just happen to be a lazy person who knows how to type very, very quickly to catch up with my trains of thought. _________________ "The principles you live by create the world you live in; if you change the principles you live by, you will change your world." -Blaine Lee
"I plan to live forever. So far so good." -Steven Wright
Tue Aug 26, 2003 5:50 pm
John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo
Joined: Nov 13, 2002
Post subject:
JohnnyPsycho wrote:
Really, though, people get extremely insulted when you call science a religion, which just makes me laugh because they don't realize that a religion is, simply, a way in which one relates to their world, a knowledge of how the world works and the way in which they relate to it. It includes science, organized religion, and even the religions of small oral-traditional societies (ie: "Nature-based" or "Tribal" religions, where the stories and teachings of religion play an absolute vital role upon the survival of the people and of their society).
Well, therein lies the problem. You have a different definition from me. I consider it a way to find comfort in life by any means possible. "It's okay if you're a terrible person, as long as you believe some hippy 2000 years ago was the son of an invisible, omnipotent being who died for your sins, and that all other religions are obviously wrong because the'yve never made such a ludicrous statement, so it must be true.
Quote:
Also, to the people who seem bent upon placing the "religion vs. science" debate back upon the whole "creationism vs. evolution" battlefield, I want you to do some research on a little-known scientific school of thought called Intelligent Design that has actually become more and more popular among paleontologists and other members of the scientific community.
Quote:
Intelligent Design is a scientific disagreement with the claim of evolutionary theory that natural phenomena are not designed. ID claims that natural laws and chance alone are not adequate to explain all natural phenomena. Evidence that is empirically detectable in nature suggests that design is the best current explanation for a variety of natural systems, particularly irreducibly complex living systems.
Intelligent Design is an intellectual movement that includes a scientific research program for investigating intelligent causes and that challenges naturalistic explanations of origins which currently drive science education and research.
I really don't like these people. For one, they immediately assume that crationism and evolution are mutually exclusive, an asinine and unobjective assumption in itself. They are clearly skewed towards crationism before any scientific method is applied (meaning the'yre lying through thier teeth about their bias). I can't stand the assumption that the universe could only work the way it is, so it must be a miracle. Especially when they don't cie examples of such mild coincidences. _________________ This space left intentionally blank.
Tue Aug 26, 2003 10:53 pm
Nobuyuki
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject:
John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo wrote:
Well, therein lies the problem. You have a different definition from me. I consider it a way to find comfort in life by any means possible. "It's okay if you're a terrible person, as long as you believe some hippy 2000 years ago was the son of an invisible, omnipotent being who died for your sins, and that all other religions are obviously wrong because the'yve never made such a ludicrous statement, so it must be true.
Actually, your definition of "religion" is not much different than JP's, as opposed to your definition of "Christianity".
And this ten-foot pole in my hands is not going any farther. _________________ "When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."- C.S. Lewis
"Superman can't be emo. He can't cut himself."-CP
Tue Aug 26, 2003 11:07 pm
John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo
Joined: Nov 13, 2002
Post subject:
Hmm... Good point. I still give the fundimental difference. Proof. One proves itself, the other cites itself. _________________ This space left intentionally blank.
Wed Aug 27, 2003 7:48 pm
Force-Attuned_Krogoth
Joined: Nov 10, 2002
Post subject:
John, you yourself are being biased. The thing about evolution is, it only determines what happens after a new change occurs. It says nothing about the cause of that change. We know little to nothing about the major changes (i.e. Cambrian explosion) and how they came about. With radiation as it is, the mutation rate is lower than would account for all the speciation on earth. There is plenty of room for ID in the evolutionary process. Just because it says "god may have done it" doesn't mean it's not possibly true, or a valid explanation. Also, who says that science has to be immediately unbiased? People don't work that way, and science doesn't require them to. Rather than be machines, scientists test theories/hypotheses, no matter their source. It's perfectly reasonable (not to mention common) to get a possible explanation from some place other than fact, then see what kind of holes can be blown in it. Sometimes, it turns out that it works as far as we know. It's kind of like evolution -- it doesn't matter how they come into being, only if they're better. _________________ Krogoth uses Berserk.
Attacks are enhanced but defense weakens.
"Wait, that's not the cure button ... "
Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:17 am
JohnnyPsycho
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Post subject:
God-damn, FAK, you're getting better at this every day. If you were a woman, I'd get on my knees and propose marriage right now, but you're a dude, so a firm hand-shake and a pat on the ass should suffice...
On that note, I'm wondering how many of you guys have ever taken a philosophy and/or a theology course? Let me know, because I have taken some religious studies classes before, and I am currently in a lower level philosophy course (as required for my degree) on Logic and Reasoning. Who knows, maybe with the help of this class, I'll be better equipped to play the part of the hypocritcal Devil's Advocate in here.
Speaking of which, that class starts in ten minutes, so I guess I gotta run...
_________________ "The principles you live by create the world you live in; if you change the principles you live by, you will change your world." -Blaine Lee
"I plan to live forever. So far so good." -Steven Wright
Thu Aug 28, 2003 2:32 pm
Force-Attuned_Krogoth
Joined: Nov 10, 2002
Post subject:
I've had exactly no formal experience with this. My views on Christianity come from my experiences growing up Presbyterian, particularly discussions with some tennis instructor who went to seminary. _________________ Krogoth uses Berserk.
Attacks are enhanced but defense weakens.
"Wait, that's not the cure button ... "
Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:36 pm
JohnnyPsycho
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Post subject:
I figured most of you wouldn't have any experience with this kind of topic, which I suppose is why it's good that there's a guy like me, who has lots of experience with this type of debate, is here to both keep the peace and stir up trouble when it seems fit. Otherwise, a thread like this has the ability to suddenly spiral into a lot of unnecessary angst and "I'm right, you're wrong" sort of stuff...
mind you, this isn't the first message board i've been a member of, but so far it has been the most pleasant and entertaining...
_________________ "The principles you live by create the world you live in; if you change the principles you live by, you will change your world." -Blaine Lee
"I plan to live forever. So far so good." -Steven Wright
Thu Aug 28, 2003 5:16 pm
John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo
Joined: Nov 13, 2002
Post subject:
Like FAK, but my brain spontaneously makes up and forgets stuff. Lots of stuff. _________________ This space left intentionally blank.
Thu Aug 28, 2003 7:29 pm
Force-Attuned_Krogoth
Joined: Nov 10, 2002
Post subject:
John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo wrote:
Like FAK, but my brain spontaneously makes up and forgets stuff. Lots of stuff.
Damn skippy. That's your most annoying trait.
It's really annoying when he tells me the same "news" three times. _________________ Krogoth uses Berserk.
Attacks are enhanced but defense weakens.
"Wait, that's not the cure button ... "
Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:00 pm
dougisfunny
Joined: Oct 29, 2002
Post subject:
Angela does that, she loves to tell news. I had something to add to the discussion, but I forget what. Maybe it was something that the general basis of science isn't to prove what something is, just to eliminate possibilties and show what it is not. And that no one has been able to eliminate the possibility of god. Dunno maybe it was something else. sleepy _________________ The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:57 pm
JohnnyPsycho
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Post subject:
How about this...
Science doesn't tell us "why" something is, it just tells us "how". It is religion's job to help us figure out the "why"...
Why does life exist? Evolution theory can't tell us that, it can only theorize as to how life changes and how current life came to be. It can't tell us why we're here. So what if we came from the same common ancestors as apes, it's not like Darwin erased all the meaning to our own existance. Evolution theory just adds another layer of understanding the mechanics of life, it doesn't have to tell us how to live or why it was so important for apes to evolve into humans. If anything, the closest answer anyone could probably come up with as to why apes evolved into humans is probably "because it must".
Religion gives us the theoretical "why". _________________ "The principles you live by create the world you live in; if you change the principles you live by, you will change your world." -Blaine Lee
"I plan to live forever. So far so good." -Steven Wright
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