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Toonami Infolink :: View topic - Yet another philosophical/religious discussion/rant
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Shazzan The
Impossibles Max Fleisher's Superman (a.k.a. Roulette) The Real Adventures of Johnny Quest Robotech Sailor Moon DragonBall Z Filmation Superman Batman Superfriends
ReBoot
Ronin Warriors G-Force Powerpuff Girls Batman: The Animated Series Gundam Wing Tenchi Muyo! Universe in Tokyo Superman Outlaw Star Big O CardCaptors Mobile Suit Gundam
O8th
MS Team DragonBall Batman Beyond Gundam 0080 Zoids: Zero Hamtaro Zoids: Chaotic Century Guardian Force G Gundam He-Man and the Masters of the Universe Transformers:
Armada
G.I. Joe .hack//Sign Yu Yu Hakusho Rurouni Kenshin QuickTime .mov MOV AVI .avi MPEG .mpg Movies movie Videos Clips Sounds articles rants essays images files CNX inner
circle
cn2 revolution Japan japanese multimedia saban funimation toei graz harmony gold mainframe Tyler Zogg TylerL
Trust me, if you were me, you would understand the magnonimous impact random small things have had on me in ONLY THE PAST 2 DAYS. And it's like, everywhere I look there's SOMETHING that sparsk a thought. Or a feeling. Probability? Maybe. But I prefer fate. It's much more cosmic that way. _________________ anime is teh s uck
Play City of Heroes/Villians? Look me up, Pinnacle server, @C Paradox
Mon Jul 21, 2003 3:09 pm
JohnnyPsycho
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Post subject:
Anyone who takes quotes from a Kevin Smith movie and puts it into a religious discussion deserves to be shot, but I'll let it slide this time...
Anyway, FAK, I would like for you to be a little more specific about what makes the specific "pros" and "cons" in your argument such, specifically:
Force-Attuned_Krogoth wrote:
People believe that compassion is more important than thinking
not entirely sure where you got that one... please explain further...
Quote:
People believe that thinking is for god, not humans
again, not sure where you got that one, unless you mean the phrase "Judge not, lest ye be judged" or similar thoughts that it is only God's right to judge or condemn man. Equal arguments can be made for either case. But, again, please explain further...
Quote:
People are taught that everyone is equal
Whoa... what the hell? Why is this placed into the "con" side of your argument? Seems like it completely disagrees with your notion that "People think that everyone else is wrong and must be corrected immediately". Unless you're trying to comment upon the dangers of liberal idealism and the failures of producing true communist societies, then I have no idea what you are talking about here.
Quote:
People are taught that human evolution is bad
Another common misconception about religion, it's almost become a cliché in these types of discussions. It's dangerous to make such broad generalizations about religious beliefs. Many theologians will tell you that there is nothing within Christian, Jewish, or Islamic teachings that discount evolution, and the few "Bible-thumpers" who continue to discount it are a striking minority of the spiritual/theological side of the discussion. Also, take a moment to actually think about the implications of what human evolution is. It is not the adaptation of modern humans to changing environment, but the eventual extinction of modern homo sapiens from the planet in favor of a newer, more agressively adaptive species. One of the craziest things about the whole evolution debate, in my opinion, is that no one realizes that evolutionary theory tells us that we will be wiped out eventually and replaced. How the hell is that such a good idea?
Again, I want to stress how seriously I want people to take my "Heart Sutra" post, and I really do want some input.
and to CP, yes, sometimes events do seem to fall together just a little too well at times. Just don't get too used to it, because fate and probablility can only work in your favor for so long... _________________ "The principles you live by create the world you live in; if you change the principles you live by, you will change your world." -Blaine Lee
"I plan to live forever. So far so good." -Steven Wright
Tue Jul 22, 2003 1:26 am
Nobuyuki
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject:
Force-Attuned_Krogoth wrote:
As for what JP admonished us for, I wholly understand that there are people out there who NEED religion in order to cope with life.
Agreed. But isn't religion the way a person defines his/her relationship to the universe?
Quote:
re·li·gion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
n.
1. a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
Quote:
However, I also assert that I don't need it and they have to reason to push it upon me.
But, to my eyes, your way of coping with life through only objective science is a religion in and of itself, whether you see it or not.
No matter. What's important is how YOU cope with your relationship with the universe at large. Not my ideas, or anyone else's.
"Do what you want, the way you want to." _________________ "When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."- C.S. Lewis
"Superman can't be emo. He can't cut himself."-CP
Tue Jul 22, 2003 3:03 am
counterparadox
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject:
JohnnyPsycho wrote:
and to CP, yes, sometimes events do seem to fall together just a little too well at times. Just don't get too used to it, because fate and probablility can only work in your favor for so long... [icon_twisted.gif]
It's not even that the things were so much in my favor as it was that they just sparked a complete circle of thoughts and emotions. I experienced a full set of highs AND lows and everything in between just by noticing things everywhere around me. Dare I say I'm a different person than I was 3 days ago. Not completely different, but I've deffinetly had some key thoughts. I don't know how else to explain it. _________________ anime is teh s uck
Play City of Heroes/Villians? Look me up, Pinnacle server, @C Paradox
Tue Jul 22, 2003 9:28 am
Force-Attuned_Krogoth
Joined: Nov 10, 2002
Post subject:
JP, just so you understand, I didn't quote it because of the movie, but because it's TRUE. Dying for a religion makes very little sense. As per your request, I will clarify my thoughts and reasonings.
Pro
People feel loved, and therefore more confident
This is pretty self-explanatory, and easy to see. Self-confidence, whether conscious or not, is generally useful in society.
People think they have outside support, and will thus try harder
This can be seen easily in the "if it weren't for knowing God was there" stories, and it also goes along with the confidence thing. If they don't feel alone, they'll try, and humans are pretty good at solving certain types of problems.
People believe that empathy determines whether they get punished after life, and thus use the golden rule
There is no doubt in my mind that being able to see all sides of an issue makes solving it much easier. There are a couple of ways of doing this, but empathy seems to be the easiest for most people. If we encourage its use, life is much easier.
People live in a structured, simpler manner
Basically, everyone knows their place and what they're supposed to be doing. If you want a good example of effective organization, look at the Mormons.
Con
People think that everyone else is in the wrong and must be corrected immediately
One word: Missionaries. I admit, this only applies to some people, but they tend to be attracted to religions like moths to halogen floodlights.
People believe that compassion is more important than thinking
Several religions, Chrisitanity especially, teach that compassion and love are the most important things. Yes, at a certain level forgiveness makes life run more smoothly, but it is certainly not always appropriate. It takes objectivity to determine when an infraction is truly incorrigible, regardless of the state of the perpetrator. Just because he didn't intend to really kill them doesn't mean it's not murder. (forgive the politically-incorrect semantics)
People believe that thinking is for god, not humans
In retrospect, I was being quite vague and ambiguous with these. Johnny got part of this one. It's partially that only god can judge people, but also the belief that "god has a plan, and everything that happens is part of it." This sort of talk, especially when Jesus said that we have the choice of whether (and who) to believe, leads to unnecessary redefinition of very fundamental concepts like premeditation, thought, and consciousness. It's easily demonstrable that humans can make decisions. We can make bad decisions. Therefore, it's not just misleading, it's incorrect to say that everything is god's plan and god's doing.
"Man is forced to accept masochism as his ideal, under the threat that sadism is the only alternative"
This is more explicit. Basically, it's a prime example of Ayn Rand's attack on altruism.
People are taught that everyone is equal
This is me saying that altruism is a bad idea, based upon flawed tenets. Ignoring the afterlife/spirit/inherent value of something being alive (because this discussion is about the effects of religion, rather than proof of the beliefs), can you really say that the inhabitants of insane asylums are as valuable as, say, Richard Feynman (Nobel Laureate in Physics, worked on Manhattan Project, taught around the world, etc)? What do the retarted people contribute to life? Those who, without understanding the consequences, kill people? Compare that to the teachers, peacemakers, inventors, and behind-the-scenes technicians and tell me if all men are created equal.
People don't give themselves credit
Humans are really quite good at doing what they concentrate on. However, many of these accomplishments are called works of god, not man. This irks me to no end, because it keeps people from realizing what they're capable of.
People are taught that human evolution is bad
JP, note that I said "human evolution", not just "evolution". Your comments have illustrated what I'm pointing at. You said that "no one realizes that evolutionary theory tells us that we will be wiped out eventually and replaced." This is a little bit skewed. Once we were able to change our environment, it stopped influencing our development. In order for evolution to continue with us as it has before, something drastic must happen. However, our intelligence has opened an evolutionary door that has never been available to any other species: Lamarckian evolution. We have the presence of mind to be able to set our own standards of "fitness." We don't have to adapt to the environment, we can go in whatever direction we want to, as long as we put our minds to it. We don't have to be replaced by the future, we can become it. How the hell is that not a good idea? But the religious masses don't want this change. Some claim that we were made as we were supposed to be, and tampering with that is not our choice, but that's not the most common rationale. Others don't look deep enough into evolutionary theory to realize that it hasn't applied to us for centuries. We've been almost completely stagnant for a disgustingly long time. Still others, like yourself, fear being replaced by the future, without realizing that it's already happening. They're your children, people, and they will still be if we strive towards genetic betterment (not cleansing, but enhancing).
As a side note, my cause that I treat religiously is not science, but independent thought. I believe that the ability to make informed decisions is more important than what runs the universe. If we can think about it, we can figure it out. _________________ Krogoth uses Berserk.
Attacks are enhanced but defense weakens.
"Wait, that's not the cure button ... "
Tue Jul 22, 2003 2:41 pm
John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo
Joined: Nov 13, 2002
Post subject:
Nobuyuki wrote:
John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo wrote:
Well, I'll be gone for a couple days. Expect a lengthy response when I get back.
Does that include an answer to my second question?
Oh, sorry about that. Yes, I suppose you could consider that a religion of its own, except placing said faith in yourself, those around you instead of some higher being. I don't consider that religion, as religion is defined as a group that believes in something that can't be proven, and they generally have an established system to make money and proliferate themselves. Science is only spread through people thinking, then wanting to buy lab equipment. There are no missionaries paid to knck on your door, and ask "do you think that there is an absurd lack of thinking in the world?"
JP: You keep mentioning this God that's beyond our comprehension. Why, then, should we worship what we can't understand. What makes him uncomprehendable, and whose to say it will always be like that. I really don't see us as a bunch of zoo animals there for God's amusement, so shouldn't he have a plan that requires us to at least have an understanding of what he/she/it is?
You mention standing upon the shoulders of giants, but one must first climb to those shoulders. You don't start physics with the latest theories, then try to build upon them. You start from the most basic principles, then work up, usually having to prove it for yourself. Everything else, yes, you have to take someone's word for it, unless you perform the same experiment for yourself to test it. This is one of the defining differences between science and religion. Science can be backed up by cold, hard fact, and not be based entirely on conjecture.
CP: Nice post.
Also nice of FAK to point out another fundimental difference between science/religion: how/why.
JohnnyPsycho wrote:
The planets, the freakin' sun, all of those can very easily be a "higher power", because they are of much greater magnetude than humanity will ever dream of achieving.
Never be able to acheive that magnitude, nor dream of it? I believe many science fiction writers have written about ringworlds and dyson spheres, and expect us to reach that point in the next few thousand years.
The Rest of that post I just quoted from is just backup for Auntie Steve's assesment of God's existence being moot anyway. Except the end, which points to a lecture, not a discussion. Read the thread topic.
Further on the evolution thing: we wouldn't be replaced by another species, we would become another species. Were the Homo Erectus wiped out, or did they simply become something more?
CP: could it be that a bunch of synapsis just changed thier probability coefficients?
Quote:
Honestly, I can no more give evidence that God exists than to tell you simply that, yes, God exists. To go any further than that would be meaningless, because it would do nothing to change your view.
In the words of Auntie Steve himself, "Proof is king, logic is prime minister." _________________ This space left intentionally blank.
Thu Jul 24, 2003 12:42 pm
counterparadox
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject:
Haha, I like how for my long post, all you say is "Nice post".
And as for my 'synapses just changing their probability coefficients', there were just too many things that signaled old memories and things I've said and done in the past. ASIDE from that, things that happened/are happeing having to do with people that AREN'T me and are just as coincidential. It's just super freaky. And cool. Freaky cool. _________________ anime is teh s uck
Play City of Heroes/Villians? Look me up, Pinnacle server, @C Paradox
Fri Jul 25, 2003 3:23 pm
John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo
Joined: Nov 13, 2002
Post subject:
Or maybe you're just now noticing these things. _________________ This space left intentionally blank.
Fri Jul 25, 2003 4:25 pm
dougisfunny
Joined: Oct 29, 2002
Post subject:
the sun revolves around the earth _________________ The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
Sat Jul 26, 2003 12:26 am
John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo
Joined: Nov 13, 2002
Post subject:
dougisfunny wrote:
the sun revolves around the earth
This... is the most topical and profound statement ever made. Ever. _________________ This space left intentionally blank.
Sat Jul 26, 2003 9:59 pm
JohnnyPsycho
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Post subject:
Okay, folks, here's the deal...
I really, really want to continue this discussion and to reply to what's been said so far (especially to the thoughts of FAK and Bono). Unfortunately, there are two problems. One is that I'll be away from my computer for about a week, so it would be unfair for me to post something, then not be able to answer any replies from that post until I get back days later.
But the second, most important reason that I am not continuing my side of the discussion is that I feel a certain duty must be fullfilled by certain other parties. That is, my post about the Buddhist Heart Sutra was never replied to.
Let me explain why I wanted a discussion about the Heart Sutra. This particular teaching of Buddhism is an interesting piece of religious evidence that I felt played very well into what our discussions had been about (ie: the imagined differences between religion and science, especially as the Heart Sutra deals with what can be observable vs. what cannot in one's knowing of the universe around them). Unfortunately, the people that I most wanted to start discussion about this have simply ignored it, and I feel personally hurt, insulted, and frustrated by the whole thing.
In my opinion, if you're going to have a religion/philosophy thread, you need to put some actual religious/philosophical items in here in order to avoid the usual "God vs. No-God" debates. But apparently my imput and opinion means very little in here, so I will refrain from further imput until I feel the discussion moves into a more constructive realm. I don't mind the old "God vs. No-God" debates, and in fact I quite enjoy them, but when I try to add something new to a thread and get ignored, I get frustrated.
So, there it is. Until somebody goes back to the previous page and takes a serious attempt at my "homework assignment", I will no longer add to the discussion. I know it looks like I'm putting my foot down and making an ultimatum, because that's exactly what I am doing. I don't mean to sound like I'm pulling a temper tantrum or a hissy-fit or anything, but I also don't feel that I am making any unreasonable demands...
Sincerely, your friendly neighborhood Devil's Advocate,
JohnnyPsycho _________________ "The principles you live by create the world you live in; if you change the principles you live by, you will change your world." -Blaine Lee
"I plan to live forever. So far so good." -Steven Wright
Sun Jul 27, 2003 7:12 pm
dougisfunny
Joined: Oct 29, 2002
Post subject:
John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo wrote:
dougisfunny wrote:
the sun revolves around the earth
This... is the most topical and profound statement ever made. Ever.
In the old day, people believed the sun did revolve around the earth. Did that make it true? It was science, it rose in the east set in the west. you saw it rotate. Now you see all sorts of things you can't explain, you say you just haven't figured it out yet and it can't be God. Does that make you right?
JP, you are wrong about emotion, it is logical. It is the addition of how everything has impacted soemone throughout there life, to that person the "emotional reaction" is quite logical that they are taking it.
if any of you have ever done any set logic there is a thing called an empty set. it is in all set, and it contains itself. Emptiness is form, and the concept of emptiness is also objective. empty of what? The spot you parked your car is empty of emptiness, and there for filled, or is it empty because it has the car there?
and as for the Heart Sutra
_________________ The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
Sun Jul 27, 2003 10:19 pm
Force-Attuned_Krogoth
Joined: Nov 10, 2002
Post subject:
Okay, as for the Heart Sutra, I understand part of it. The first half, though, is very much hyperbole. Yes, I agree that existence, of itself, has little worth, and always changes. However, that doesn't mean that it can't be more. I firmly believe that life is exactly what you make of it. Nothing more, nothing less. However, the poem seems to ignore the fact that being is a little more than thought. Yes, it's involved, but there is also doing, which is often more difficult than thinking about the problem. Knowing everything/true knowledge is admirable, and can be useful, but it is almost always not the full answer, and it is only rarely the only answer.
Perhaps my disagreement with this lies in my basic tenet: that the world works. These Buddhists seem to contest that fact, and try to dwell in their own little world. I wonder who's most correct?
Anyhoo, JP, let's hear your thoughts when you can comfortably post them. If you want to wait, that's fine, but you don't need to hover in the board looking for responses. I'm going to be gone a bit, I've been gone for a week at a time for most of this summer, and there are side conversations going on. I see no problem in having either delay. I'm interested to see what you have to say about my response, though. _________________ Krogoth uses Berserk.
Attacks are enhanced but defense weakens.
"Wait, that's not the cure button ... "
Sun Jul 27, 2003 10:48 pm
John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo
Joined: Nov 13, 2002
Post subject: Everyone is entitled to MY opinion
Okay, folks, this is the one forum I can't get to tonight, as it is late, and I must get to bed. Rest assured, however the the 3 of you have undoubtedly said enough things for me to disagree with for a rather lengthy pst tomorrow or the day after. _________________ This space left intentionally blank.
Thu Jul 31, 2003 12:30 am
counterparadox
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject:
John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo wrote:
dougisfunny wrote:
the sun revolves around the earth
This... is the most topical and profound statement ever made. Ever.
Whatwith his followup post, yes, yes it was. I'm rather impressed Dougman. _________________ anime is teh s uck
Play City of Heroes/Villians? Look me up, Pinnacle server, @C Paradox
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Never be able to acheive that magnitude, nor dream of it? I believe many science fiction writers have written about ringworlds and dyson spheres, and expect us to reach that point in the next few thousand years.
