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Toonami Infolink :: View topic - Yet another philosophical/religious discussion/rant
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Impossibles Max Fleisher's Superman (a.k.a. Roulette) The Real Adventures of Johnny Quest Robotech Sailor Moon DragonBall Z Filmation Superman Batman Superfriends
ReBoot
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I would just like to say that TWWK's statement about "the more I read the Bible, and pray" doesn't seem like finding evidence to me. I like debating this stuff, because I'm really not sure, although Ockham's razor shaves a hell of a lot of god out of the Universe. (excuse the lame pun) However, I have never found anything mildly convincing about the Bible, or praying. The Bible is in no way objective.
What if (to draw an example into modern times) you got an e-mail or message on your answering machine from someone you don't know, who says "I brought you into this world, and I can take you out of it, and I want you to do what I say: . . . " When you try to respond, the e-mail address is nonexistent, or the phone line is disconnected or blocked, so no two-way communication is possible. Would you do the task that was given to you? What if a few other people had gotten messages in various ways, from various sources, at various times, telling them to do stuff?
To me, this is what God is like. He supposedly (remember, all of this is heresay and inadmissable in any respectable courtroom) said that he was responsible for the creation of the Universe, and for the formation of Earth, and for the development of all life, and the complexity of intelligence, and the color of your hair. Nothing happens that is not noticed and/or consented to by him. Because of this, we should worship him, and love him, and devote all we have to doing what he wants done (god knows why he doesn't do it himself). Oh, yeah, and he loves everyone and isn't going to punish us in this form of existence.
Basically, God, or whomever purports to speak on his behalf, has covered all the bases. There is absolutely no way to tell if god exists. You can't see a difference between things that are god-controlled and things that aren't, because there isn't anything in the latter category. You can't be a bad boy and see if god strikes you down, because he'll wait until you stop sending letters from the afterlife. Finally, you can't do any test that could show or disprove his will, because he said not to.
I contend, however, that it makes exactly no difference here in the Universe whether God is there or not. My next piece of evidence can be taken to mean that god is moot, or he does not exist, or is at least grossly misrepresented: Every physical law we've seen is consistent. If something behaves the same way every time you push it, there is no reason to care about the emotional motivations of whatever keeps it constant. If god changes his mind (if you don't think he does, you may be missing a Testament), then he could change the way the world works. But he hasn't, except for humans ('cause we're special, just as every other thing ever made is special). Even that is debatable.
Essentially, I have one question for TWWK. Why do you believe in God? Please try to respond as completely and accurately, and, most important, specifically, as possible. I'd really like to have someone tell me straight up for once, rather than getting all defensive and accusing me of sarcasm, or playing around. I ask in all seriousness. _________________ Krogoth uses Berserk.
Attacks are enhanced but defense weakens.
"Wait, that's not the cure button ... "
Wed Jun 04, 2003 7:17 pm
counterparadox
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject:
Well, Bono, keep in mind I havne't read everything you and TWWK have said.
As for what FAK just said, I have NO clue how to respond. I don't know my own beliefes right now and so don't have a clue what to say to that. _________________ anime is teh s uck
Play City of Heroes/Villians? Look me up, Pinnacle server, @C Paradox
Wed Jun 04, 2003 7:55 pm
TheWorldWeKnow
Joined: Nov 08, 2002
Post subject:
counterparadox wrote:
To pose a Thomas Hobbes-esque question, is it truly love if you are doing it only to, for lack of a better word, please God? If you are only compassionate because God demands it, then isn't it, in truth, self-centered, and thus defeats the whole purpose?
no, good question...inherently, it's both self-centered and not
It's not self-centered because of the REASONS I am doing what I do; I am doing it for God...that's not self-centered, that's doing what I'm doing for another...quite the opposite of self-centeredness...I'm not doing it for the personal satisfaction or the joy of doing something
however, joy from loving comes in as a side effect...when we show love to someone, we're gonna normally feel good, right? but that's not why I'm doing it; however, the Bible says we should find all our joy in doing the Lord's will...so in loving people, we will find joy...it's not self-centered if we're doing this for ourselves, for our own feelings; rather, it's God-centered
so, in conclusion, why is NOT self-centered? because, I'm doing it FOR God, not for my own joy...the joy is a result of doing something completely for another person
while this is the goal, human are not perfect...and we are constantly seeking our own self-gratification; so, I'm not saying that I always (or even mostly) follow what I profess to do...but this is what I strive for
Thu Jun 05, 2003 1:52 am
TheWorldWeKnow
Joined: Nov 08, 2002
Post subject:
Force-Attuned_Krogoth wrote:
I would just like to say that TWWK's statement about "the more I read the Bible, and pray" doesn't seem like finding evidence to me.
This is NOT evidence, I'll give you that. But I didn't intend for it to be evidence, just telling you what I believe (and stronger than that, what I know to be true).
I'll get to your question about God later...maybe wayyy later...it's a question that requires much detail, and I will be on vacation...from this vacation...for the next four or five days...
but I will get to it!
Thu Jun 05, 2003 1:55 am
TheWorldWeKnow
Joined: Nov 08, 2002
Post subject:
three messages in a row...not good
anyway FAK, I wrote my answer...but I'm having computer problems...I'll get it to you in about 5 days (going on vacation tomorrow)
Thu Jun 05, 2003 11:03 am
TheWorldWeKnow
Joined: Nov 08, 2002
Post subject:
5 days, huh? sorry, my bad
I'll give you my excuse...I wrote my answer within that 5 day frame...but I'm having computer problems...I was unable to transfer that file from my computer to the only computer here that has internet access, and I've been too lazy to rewrite it...my answer was 10+ pages, and wasn't nearly complete
so, here's the short short short version of why I believe in God...
I believe that, deep down, the thing that is most important to all of us, and that is wanted most by us, is love. That at the root of what we find most important is always love. Here, in my essay, I give examples about how many seemingly "earthly" things are really just us seeking love.
What is love? Tough question...but I believe that pure love is what the Bible shows. It's a love that has no conditions - one who truly loves, loves without thinking of gain, loves us DESPITE our shortcomings, and forgives without any reservation. True love loves us no matter what.
Where is this love found? In real life? I'm really not sure if I've ever encountered this type of love, love in this purest sense. But I do know that it exists in the Bible. The Bible says that God IS love, and every single one of his actions, as depicted by the Bible, shows this love. What could be greater for a higher being than to show this perfect love?
However, just because someone that someone else wrote about depicts this love, doesn't mean that that person...or in this case, God...exists. Is it that I just WANT this God to exist, because I long for this kind of love? Am I just convincing myself that God exists to fulfill this need? I'll tell you why I don't believe that - it's because I feel this tugging within my heart that's calling to me. This tugging is not society telling me what to do, or dopamine rushing through my system and affecting my thoughts. I believe that this tugging is God calling to me. People say that you can't see God...but God makes himself manifest to us in many other ways. His love surrounds us, if you're willing to see it. And sure, it's still hard to believe...but that's why it's called a leap of faith.
After I took that leap, I had moments of doubt, sure. But those doubts dissapear more and more everyday, and my belief grows with every argument I read, every prayer I pray, and every word of scripture I absorb. I believe that God, being perfect, had made a perfect Word. And I believe that the Bible is bulletproof, because God is bulletproof.
This is kind of the nuts and bolts of why I believe...I've left a LOT out...I simply don't have the time I need to tell you completely why I believe. But there's pretty much the sum of it: God is Love, and I was convinced by His love.
Anyone is welcome to tear this apart...but, I want you to know, that this is not an argument. This short essay, unlike what I believe about the Bible, is not bulletproof. So, if you decide I'm full of bologna, so be it! If you think this essay doesn't make ANY sense whatsoever, so be it! This is just what I believe to be true.
Thu Jun 19, 2003 1:09 pm
Force-Attuned_Krogoth
Joined: Nov 10, 2002
Post subject:
Thank you for your response. I finally have an insight into the Christian mind.
As I often say, Christianity (and most major religions) make a lot of sense, given a set of basic premises. I do not agree with those premises, however. I will tell you why:
1. There is no substantiated evidence that God manifests himself directly. This means that most of what he does must be in the fabric of the Universe itself. However, if that were true, then the world would prefer good to bad. It doesn't. There are usually multiple evolutionarily viable courses of action, and, particularly when humans are involved, most of them are represented. If selfishness were preferred against, it would not be nearly as prevalent as it is today. "Good" people do not live longer (barring societal interventions) than "bad" people. I see no evidence that the universe has a moral slant.
2. The existence of a god/gods is not, according to the guidelines of science, a good theory. It does not explain much more than it was created to explain. It does not allow us to make predictions of any kind, let alone accurate ones. It is not subject to peer review, because it can never be proven wrong. (if it is proven wrong, a priest can say for god "I meant to do that)
Essentially, Okham's Razor tears god to ribbons. It's not that I believe god doesn't exist, I just think his existence is moot. And I'm not getting into life after death until I have a lot more time to spend ranting about it. _________________ Krogoth uses Berserk.
Attacks are enhanced but defense weakens.
"Wait, that's not the cure button ... "
Sat Jun 21, 2003 3:17 pm
TheWorldWeKnow
Joined: Nov 08, 2002
Post subject:
Force-Attuned_Krogoth wrote:
Thank you for your response. I finally have an insight into the Christian mind.
hehe, yeah, well...this is an insight into A Christian mind...I know a lot of Christians that think similarly to me...but I don't know if this is uh, the "average" Christian mind?
Quote:
1. There is no substantiated evidence that God manifests himself directly. This means that most of what he does must be in the fabric of the Universe itself. However, if that were true, then the world would prefer good to bad. It doesn't.
Yeah, it's hard to PROVE that the universe has a moral slant toward good. But this is what I think...Lewis was right in saying that there are inherently things good that are common to just about everyone, in all cultures - I mean, a smile means the same thing everywhere. So, I think this supports the existence of God, in that there is an ingrained idea of right and wrong in us (of course, you may think I'm twisting this around and really don't have a strong point...you could be right). However, I think that man is slanted toward bad...I believe that's what the Bible teaches (original sin, and all). So, if the world is as bad as it is good...that's not unexpected. As for good people living as long (or as short of a time) as bad people...that certainly doesn't speak against Christianity. The world is temporal according to Christianity - Jesus said the good would suffer, be persecuted, etc., and that this world is NOT fair.
Quote:
2. The existence of a god/gods is not, according to the guidelines of science, a good theory.
Agreed - Christianity isn't a good scientific theory. Though a little off-topic, I will say that Christianity isn't necessarily unscientific though. The Christian community accepts the big bang, accepts most scientific ideas (of course, evolution being the big one under debate), and has helped prove the extreme reliability of the NT.
Quote:
Essentially, Okham's Razor tears god to ribbons.
I have no idea what this is...and I'm too lazy to look it up...eh, maybe I will, soon
Sun Jun 22, 2003 3:12 am
John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo
Joined: Nov 13, 2002
Post subject:
TheWorldWeKnow wrote:
Lewis was right in saying that there are inherently things good that are common to just about everyone, in all cultures - I mean, a smile means the same thing everywhere.
Note: Mammals have existed on earth dozens of millions of years--I think a few instinctual, universally recognized expressions would have surfaced sheerly out of necessity if nothing else. _________________ This space left intentionally blank.
Tue Jun 24, 2003 5:02 pm
Force-Attuned_Krogoth
Joined: Nov 10, 2002
Post subject: Please excuse the lateness of my reply
Hmm . . . interesting.
I think that, by his own definition, God is moot. "I refuse to prove I exist." To me, this fits the way the Universe is, because there is exactly no evidence of supreme deities. (It goes without saying that this statement is also not evidence in favor of god)
TWWK, Ockham's Razor (Better known as Occam's Razor) is the statement that, given a range of explanations, the simplest one is usually most correct. The theory of God is not the simplest answer, nor does it explain anything outside of itself without circular logic.
John, you're right -- a lot of stuff could be very common between mammals. Remember, ALL mammals have exactly 7 bones in their necks. This includes whales and giraffes. There's no good reason for some individual species to have this, but if they all derived from a single species/set of species that had this trait, it explains the universality of it. I don't know why I didn't catch that . . . I think I need to revive the evolution thread to keep me in practice. _________________ Krogoth uses Berserk.
Attacks are enhanced but defense weakens.
"Wait, that's not the cure button ... "
Thu Jul 03, 2003 12:21 pm
TheWorldWeKnow
Joined: Nov 08, 2002
Post subject: Re: Please excuse the lateness of my reply
Force-Attuned_Krogoth wrote:
Hmm . . . interesting.
I think that, by his own definition, God is moot. "I refuse to prove I exist." To me, this fits the way the Universe is, because there is exactly no evidence of supreme deities. (It goes without saying that this statement is also not evidence in favor of god)
Um, don't know if I said otherwise some place in this convo (which I may have...I have a tendency sometimes to write before I think), but God does NOT refuse to prove He exists; as a matter of fact, most Christians believe "proof" of His existence is all around us (ex. the air we breathe, human life, etc.) - the question is whether or not we believe these everyday things ARE from God, or if they aren't; as for PRESENTING Himself before us in all His glory, this is a reasoning for this (it may not be the only one, but it's the one that comes to my mind first): once He presents Himself, frankly, "free choice" as whether to follow Him or not ends; right now, God "invites" us to follow Him - he doesn't FORCE us: after all, "forced" love isn't real love at all; we have to reach out in faith and grab it; however, if He reveals Himself, then there is no longer a choice of whether or not to believe...everyone would know He exists (if indeed God decides to make Himself known to the hearts of all men, whether or not they want to accept His existence) - the choice NOW becomes whether to FOLLOW Him or not, which does not necessarily take ANY love on our part; therefore, if we are loving Him out of fear, or out of duty, that is not really love; and then, why do we exist? our existence is for His glory, according to Christians...we are not glorifying Him if we are worshipping Him for any other reason OTHER than love
Thu Jul 03, 2003 12:43 pm
Nobuyuki
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject: Re: Please excuse the lateness of my reply
TheWorldWeKnow wrote:
Um, don't know if I said otherwise some place in this convo (which I may have...I have a tendency sometimes to write before I think), but God does NOT refuse to prove He exists; as a matter of fact, most Christians believe "proof" of His existence is all around us (ex. the air we breathe, human life, etc.) - the question is whether or not we believe these everyday things ARE from God, or if they aren't;
Yep.
"My friend looks at the world around him, and asks, 'Is there is a God?'
I look at the world around me and ask, 'How can there not be?' " _________________ "When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."- C.S. Lewis
"Superman can't be emo. He can't cut himself."-CP
Thu Jul 03, 2003 4:50 pm
Force-Attuned_Krogoth
Joined: Nov 10, 2002
Post subject:
In response to TWWK: I'm glad we've found some place of agreement. God has not given evidence of his existence. Rather, people come along and attribute things to Him. Or not, as their own case may be.
To Nobu's post: In contrast, I look around and I see a few processes by which all of this came to be together. I (and many others) call them gravity and valence. That's for the physical world. As for the living world, there's natural selection. I admit, there is plenty of room in the development of complex life for intelligent tampering, and this the best evidence of the existence of God. However, there is also room for other theories, so it's neutral ground.
What I don't see is any way by which God CAN exist. Where does He get his energy? If he's omnipotent, that means he has infinite power, thus infinite energy. Thus, infinite energy exists in the Universe. This would also imply that there is infinite matter, and an infinite number of stars. Thus, the night sky would be all light, and not mostly dark. From this, I can conclude that God has limited sovreignty. This leads to the question: where does God's power end? Also, how does he do what he does?
See, belief in God raises more questions than it provides answers to. It also does not allow us to predict anything.
When I look at what God has done, I find two questions staring back at me: How and Why. The first question has the same answer whether God exists or not, and the second is either "beyond human comprehension" or has no answer. When I look at God, I find no comfort from the unknown. _________________ Krogoth uses Berserk.
Attacks are enhanced but defense weakens.
"Wait, that's not the cure button ... "
Fri Jul 04, 2003 8:37 pm
Nobuyuki
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject:
Force-Attuned_Krogoth wrote:
In response to TWWK: I'm glad we've found some place of agreement. God has not given evidence of his existence. Rather, people come along and attribute things to Him. Or not, as their own case may be.
To Nobu's post: In contrast, I look around and I see a few processes by which all of this came to be together. I (and many others) call them gravity and valence. That's for the physical world. As for the living world, there's natural selection. I admit, there is plenty of room in the development of complex life for intelligent tampering, and this the best evidence of the existence of God. However, there is also room for other theories, so it's neutral ground.
I think we're all in the same place of agreement here, FAK. It's all in the perspective you choose to look at it. _________________ "When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."- C.S. Lewis
"Superman can't be emo. He can't cut himself."-CP
Fri Jul 04, 2003 9:06 pm
TheWorldWeKnow
Joined: Nov 08, 2002
Post subject:
Force-Attuned_Krogoth wrote:
What I don't see is any way by which God CAN exist. Where does He get his energy? If he's omnipotent, that means he has infinite power, thus infinite energy. Thus, infinite energy exists in the Universe. This would also imply that there is infinite matter, and an infinite number of stars. Thus, the night sky would be all light, and not mostly dark. From this, I can conclude that God has limited sovreignty. This leads to the question: where does God's power end? Also, how does he do what he does?
See, belief in God raises more questions than it provides answers to. It also does not allow us to predict anything.
okay, problems here in theology about God...
He is God...by the very definition of an all-powerful God, He doesn't have to exist by the rules of the universe
Secondly, God does not dwell physically in this universe - thus the idea of the sky being filled with light is moot; God is not on this plane
You have to free your mind, so to speak - you're thinking on a purely human level - if a god of omnipotent power exists, then of course he does not live with these "rules" assigned by the universe; they simply don't apply - God is on his own level; how can our creator exist without having always existed and having all power? it SHOULDN'T make sense, according to our human ideas...God is above the laws he has consigned our universe to live with
Quote:
When I look at what God has done, I find two questions staring back at me: How and Why. The first question has the same answer whether God exists or not, and the second is either "beyond human comprehension" or has no answer. When I look at God, I find no comfort from the unknown.
The "why" question is stated in the Bible...it's all for His glory; this is why things exist; God is perfect, and part of this perfection is His creation of what exists in this universe; creation is an act of love - and this pure act of love is a sign of perfection
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