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Toonami Infolink :: View topic - Columbus Day Sucks
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I think he's trying to say it's Thanksgiving in Canada... Eh? _________________ Ice cream has this erotic sense to it- kinda like the one choclate and strawberries have.
-Me
Tue Oct 14, 2003 12:50 am
JohnnyPsycho
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Post subject:
Hooray! Let's see how many holes I can put into Spooky's argument!!
Spookmonkey wrote:
Columbus Day is a holiday for one reason and one reason alone. It's to celebrate the finding of the New world by the Old. The man himself has nothing to do with the day except having the find attributed to him.
Nope, wrong. You obviously have no idea what Columbus symbolizes, which would account for why you wouldn't understand why Native peoples from as far north as the Canadian Tundra and as far south as the Strait of Magellan aren't happy about celebrating Columbus. It's not "simply" a celebration of "Old World" finding "New World", it's an annual observance of the systematic invasion that occured afterwards. Hellooooooo, did that just completely pass over you? Number one rule in any argument is that nothing is ever "simply" or "just", there's always numerous sides, no matter how much you want to ignore them.
Spookmonkey wrote:
What the old world did after it was found is not what the day represents. The mexicans don't liek the spanish, the indians don't like the italians, the english, and especially the americans. Yes atrocities were commited but when really has "we were here first" ever worked? Kinda sucks that it doesn't, but it's not always the bullies that kick people off or out.
Gee, I don't know where you got that "Indians don't like Italians" thing. Hell, I believe I already said that I had cousins who are Italian, and I already pointed out that most Native folk I've met have no problems with Italian-Americans showing pride in their heritage, we just wish they'd not make Columbus out to be the same legendary hero that the history books of old made him out to be. And no, this stuff hasn't gone away. The old rules that Columbus and the people he worked for are still in use, you just don't know it because of the political whitewashing occuring in our media. Or have you completely forgotten about the Zapatistas, or the countless other indigenous peoples in Central and South America struggling to regain rights that are still denied them due to the systematic discrimination placed by the ruling political parties of their countries. The problems in Haiti? The problems in Cuba? Those all can be traced back to these same problems. It's not "just" a bunch of guys in North Dakota somewhere griping about how Columbus "hurts their feelings".
Spookmonkey wrote:
It just pisses me off when people claim nowadays that their anscesters rights were abused and want some sort of reparations for it now. Well tough fucking shit. It really asucked that your anscestors had to go through it, but what does that have to do with things today? You didn't go throguh it, your parents didn't, and who today is responsible to for those things? NOBODY. There is nobody that should give reparations, there is nobody who should get reparations. That was the past, this is the future. There is no March of Tears, there is no Slavery. None of it. History books have changed, they (a majority of them) no longer teach the victors history, if anything it has become popular to show the losers history and show the victor in an evil and terrible light. Neither is right. Yes atrocities were done. But the white man was NOT the only one to do so. You can't tell me that the indian people did not do some terrible things to prisoners that they might have taken.
Ah, I love it when people say this, because it shows exactly how much they don't get it. Hellooooo. I just said that things haven't changed. Sure, when my friends hold a public protest on campus, we're no longer afraid of being lynched or shot by law enforcement, but then again, Leonard Peltier is still in jail.
Face it, the world isn't as peachy as you want to believe, and things have not become Utopian.
And let me add, Spooky, that neither I nor any of my collegues have ever asked for reperations. What we do ask for is that people keep an open mind, and to have the chance to tell our history. Our protests aren't about getting land back or getting our 40 acres and a mule, it's about educating the masses about the meaning of Columbus Day to the Indigenous population that still lives here.
We have not disappeared. We were not killed off. We survived, but our history and our culture are being choked out still. The threat of genocide is not of concentration camps, diseased blankets, forced marches, or slavery. It's my dad, and his father, being forced to go to Christian schools, taught only to speak English. It's me, not knowing how to form a simple sentence in my people's language, growing up not knowing any of my people's stories, and being told that I come from a conquered race. It stills goes on.
Colombus Day isn't "just" a day to celebrate Europe's "discovery" of the Americas, just like Columbus himself wasn't "just" some guy who navigated three leaky boats across the Atlantic. His motives were clear, in all of his journals, and his methods were brutal.
Quote:
"Columbus' actions set the foundation for legal and social policies -- still used today in United States, Mexico, Canada, South America, and in many countries around the world. These policies justify the theft and destruction of indigenous peoples' lands and knowledge by corporate and government interests. Media, films, judicial systems, educational systems, and other political and social institutions support this continued assault on the natural resources of indigenous peoples. Indigenous peoples today remain at the margins of technological society -- struggling to overcome the destruction of land, culture and language. In many ways all peoples on this planet are impacted. These attacks on indigenous peoples and their land and their knowledge contribute to the destruction of ecosystems and the erosion of human rights for all people.
"From the actions and words of the parade organizers over the last year, it is clear that the parade represents more than a celebration of Italian culture, or even of Columbus, the man. It is a glorification of the colonial tradition described above and the privileging of an Italian past that benefited and grew out of that process of subjugation. Moreover, in its celebration it is intended to serve as a reminder of that past, to convey that the genocide for which Columbus was personally responsible is an acceptable cost for the extension of western civilization. If the parade was truly intended to "celebrate" Italian heritage, why begin with Columbus? Why not simply call it the "Italian Heritage Parade?" Surely, the organizers would draw a wider audience and reflect a broader and more accurate view of Italian culture. However, neither the title nor the actions of the organizers are accidental. Both are intended to convey what the parade organizers find valuable in their interpretation of the Italian American experience; namely, the legacy of racial superiority, conquest, and domination epitomized by Columbus. The Columbus parade is the ultimate opportunity for the parade organizers to champion the invasion of the America's, thereby avoiding any personal or collective responsibility for the genocide that began under Columbus, and that continues today. We can find nothing of value in cultural celebration that elevate the pride of one group by demeaning and disrespecting another. When we allow a parade in honor of Columbus to take place without objection, we are tacitly supporting those values that celebrate subjugation, and we are suggesting that such a parade represents all of our interests. In opposing the Columbus Day parade, we refuse to accept or enable those values and we maintain that our resources, time, and energy, are better invested in expressions of good will, mutual respect, and building collective dignity."
I hope that cleared some things up for you... _________________ "The principles you live by create the world you live in; if you change the principles you live by, you will change your world." -Blaine Lee
"I plan to live forever. So far so good." -Steven Wright
Tue Oct 14, 2003 3:17 am
gfpaperboy22
Joined: Oct 31, 2002
Post subject:
WARNING: Cheap Stab
JohnnyPsycho wrote:
We have not disappeared. We were not killed off.
Yes, we know you guys are still there... we see those casino's all the time.
Tue Oct 14, 2003 4:08 am
Spookmonkey
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject:
It's too early to read anything. I'll spackle up my argument later. _________________ "Veni. Vedi. Spooki." - Julius Caesar
I came. I saw. I spooked.
Yes, we know you guys are still there... we see those casino's all the time.
Hell, after centuries of hearing "The Man" say "Why can't those Indians just learn to adapt", we finally do, and you get all pissed off about it. I mean, what better way to adapt to a culture built upon greed than to exploit that very greed as its own weakness? I mean, after all, it's the American dream, isn't it?
_________________ "The principles you live by create the world you live in; if you change the principles you live by, you will change your world." -Blaine Lee
"I plan to live forever. So far so good." -Steven Wright
Tue Oct 14, 2003 1:39 pm
FinalDivineDragoon
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject:
Uhh JP you never did answer my question...that is if you know the answer. Y'know the one where I asked you if you knew what tribe you and your ancestry are, if you care about that? I'm asking that because i'm learning about the real truth of the west in the 19th century in my history class. _________________ There is limited intelligence in the galaxy, but the stupidity of the universe is infinite.
Tue Oct 14, 2003 1:55 pm
JohnnyPsycho
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Post subject:
My dad is full Potawatomi, from the Hannahville Indian Community Potawatomi Reservation in Wilson, Michigan. My mom is a mixture of stuff, including Pokagon Band Potawatomi, Osage and Choctaw from around the Kansas area, and a great-great-grandfather who was French (which means he was my great-great-great-grandfather, which means I am 1/32 French... which makes me about as white as Barry White).
I also mentioned that I have cousins with Italian ancestry (my mom's uncle was 100% Italian, his parents had immigrated). What's even more interesting (or maybe not) is that my mom's side of the family also has a lot of Hawaiian cultural exposure: my grandmother and great-aunt both dance and taught the hula and spoke some of the language, traveling across the country in Hawaiian dance shows during the 40's, 50's, and 60's, and even today go by their Hawaiian "stage-names"; my mom also used to dance and teach hula before she had us kids, and she likes to use random Hawaiian words in her everyday vocabulary. So there's been a long-running and completely false rumor that we have Hawaiian ancestry.
Then add in the fact that my grandmother (the same one who dances hula) has Japanese and Chinese friends, and has had an interest in Chinese history and culture for years, plus me having an "aunt" (really just a friend of my mom's) who's Samoan, whose kids consider me their "cousin"... well, my mom's family has a looooooong tradition of that "melting pot" mentality.
Weird, huh?
but, in the end, I claim my Potawatomi ancestry more, mostly because it's easier to trace my dad's side of the family than my mom's (hee hee)... _________________ "The principles you live by create the world you live in; if you change the principles you live by, you will change your world." -Blaine Lee
"I plan to live forever. So far so good." -Steven Wright
Tue Oct 14, 2003 3:58 pm
gfpaperboy22
Joined: Oct 31, 2002
Post subject:
JohnnyPsycho wrote:
gfpaperboy22 wrote:
WARNING: Cheap Stab
JohnnyPsycho wrote:
We have not disappeared. We were not killed off.
Yes, we know you guys are still there... we see those casino's all the time.
Hell, after centuries of hearing "The Man" say "Why can't those Indians just learn to adapt", we finally do, and you get all pissed off about it. I mean, what better way to adapt to a culture built upon greed than to exploit that very greed as its own weakness? I mean, after all, it's the American dream, isn't it?
I didn't say it was a bad thing.
Tue Oct 14, 2003 4:28 pm
Spookmonkey
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject:
Quote:
You obviously have no idea what Columbus symbolizes, which would account for why you wouldn't understand why Native peoples from as far north as the Canadian Tundra and as far south as the Strait of Magellan aren't happy about celebrating Columbus.
Thing is, things (and people) symbolize different things to different people(s). I understand why the tribes don't like him. But do you understand that the meaning of things can change over time? Columbus no longer symbolizes what he used to. The only reason the day is still around now adays is to celebrate the old finding the new.
Quote:
we just wish they'd not make Columbus out to be the same legendary hero that the history books of old made him out to be. And no, this stuff hasn't gone away. The old rules that Columbus and the people he worked for are still in use, you just don't know it because of the political whitewashing occuring in our media. Or have you completely forgotten about the Zapatistas, or the countless other indigenous peoples in Central and South America struggling to regain rights that are still denied them due to the systematic discrimination placed by the ruling political parties of their countries.
The thing is Columbus ISN'T made out to be the hero history books used to make him out to be. History is one fo the FEW academic areas that I enjoy, the policital "whitewashing" as you put it is yesterdays fad. As I stated before history is being "rewritten" for the lack of a better term to be more open to the truth. Historians are out in force piecing together bits and pieces of what they can find to try to find the real truth of things. The political trend in writing histories today is actually casting full blame on the white man. This is no more the truth than the whitewashing. The truth is somewhere in between. I am not saying that white mans coming here was all flowers and the evil savages had it coming. Not int he slightest. I am saying that yes, terrible things were done. Largely by the side of the english/french/italians/misc. but you can't tell me natives didn't do their own versions of horrors as well.
The countries you speak of, all are 3rd world. Mexico is a 3rd world country. United States and Canada are not. Both contries have tried to right their wrongs and continue to try. Yes, it sucks for those who live in the countries where they are still oppressed, but in those countries you probably will also find that there isn't much of a difference between them and everyone else. You live in a country were raising yourself up is encouraged, they do not. They live in counties whose government struggle to keep control every day, you do not. Your peoples plight and those in Cuba are worlds apart. I'm sure that there are more than a few natives in Cuba or Haiti who would gladly trade spots with you on your worst day any day of the week.
Quote:
And let me add, Spooky, that neither I nor any of my collegues have ever asked for reperations. What we do ask for is that people keep an open mind, and to have the chance to tell our history.
We have been listening to your history, the only problem is that your history didn't enter the public school until you were done with the classes that would have addressed them.
Quote:
Our protests aren't about getting land back or getting our 40 acres and a mule, it's about educating the masses about the meaning of Columbus Day to the Indigenous population that still lives here.
This I believe only so far. There has been far to much talk from various tribes about the theft of land and getting what they are owed back to believe that entirely. Though I would love for it to be a universal fact.
Quote:
We have not disappeared. We were not killed off. We survived, but our history and our culture are being choked out still. The threat of genocide is not of concentration camps, diseased blankets, forced marches, or slavery. It's my dad, and his father, being forced to go to Christian schools, taught only to speak English. It's me, not knowing how to form a simple sentence in my people's language, growing up not knowing any of my people's stories, and being told that I come from a conquered race. It stills goes on.
Such a pretty speach. I agree with just about all of it but that doesn't matter. Being forced to go to christian schools? As opposed to going to public schools? Or maybe no education at all? Yeah, it sucks that another religion was forced upon them. But an education is an education even as skewed as it might have been. taught only english? unless there were stationed guards amungst your tribe to kill all who uttered its tongue this falls mostly on the lack communication in the first place. Yes it's sad not being able to speak a single simple sentance in the language but did you try to find someone to teach you when you were younger or was it only later in your life when you realized you were deprived of your peoples anscestory. While I do say keep fighting for the truth, also realize the situations when they arrive.
By the way, the casino thing wasn't said as a degridation but as a joke. It's obvious that tribes all over the country have found a business that draws in money to help themselves out. I say go for it.
By the way, Columbus himself wasn't evil. Neither were his superiors. There were most definitly some evil-doers who came over and did alot of damage but the biggest killer of the natives were the european bacteria and viruses that they unknowingly broguht with them. Let's just randomly flip the tables here a little. Lets say some native
desided back in 1492 that he wanted to, oh I don't know prove the earth wasn't ont he back of a turtle or something like that and find some long lost tribe or whatever to trade with. Lets just say that this native got a whole crew of other natives together on a boat of somesort. Now lets say this boatload of (we'll call them indians from now on as to not get confusing later) indians set sail to the west and landed upon.... how about Japan, yes Japan sounds good. Now this boat load of indians finds some of the natives of that land and goes "holy crap! we have to have found something here!" and head back to report the finding. You still with me? Anyway, after they report back the word spreads around about a vast new land with a people unlike anything they've seen before. Well teh leaders of a number of tribes go "hey, I bet there are a great number of things over there that would help us expand or solve problem X" and so an armada of indians are sent over there. Well said armada is met with resistance. Would the brave indians go well shoot, this was a waste of time and head home never to venture outward again? Most likely not, they would probably meet the resistance with some sort of force. On top of that the "new old worlds (the indians side of the pond)" diseases would also be running rampant through that land so damn fast. And then some stuff happens.
Then some 500 years later how do you thing the japanese people would have looked upon that one indian whos actions didn't really do anything wrong? It just so happened that the people back home had some other ideas in mind.
Is it really right to blame the guy who accidently opened the gates? I do hope my point on that got acrossed, no matter how absurd the situation might sound. _________________ "Veni. Vedi. Spooki." - Julius Caesar
I came. I saw. I spooked.
Hell, after centuries of hearing "The Man" say "Why can't those Indians just learn to adapt", we finally do, and you get all pissed off about it. I mean, what better way to adapt to a culture built upon greed than to exploit that very greed as its own weakness? I mean, after all, it's the American dream, isn't it?
Yeesh you're in a pissy mood. and a bigotous mood too. It, if I remember right, according to history books... was the natives who traded their lands for shiny objects.
EVERYONE is distracted by shiny objects. It's just that you found away to capitalize on that realization. It has nothing to do with being ironic using the whitemans greed against himself. It has more to do with OOOO!!! SHINY AND LOUD! Wee! _________________ "Veni. Vedi. Spooki." - Julius Caesar
I came. I saw. I spooked.
i'll just say that i do agree with removing columbus's name from the holiday, but i lack the time and debate skills to compete seriously with others here, so take it for what you will...
hell, why not just name it "National Department Store Discount Day" to put some true meaning behind it? _________________ "Life's a journey, not a destination..." -Aerosmith ('Amazing')
Current RPG(s): (None)
Tue Oct 14, 2003 7:41 pm
dougisfunny
Joined: Oct 29, 2002
Post subject:
anyone have thoughts on Waiting for Godot? _________________ The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
Tue Oct 14, 2003 9:59 pm
Spookmonkey
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject:
From this day forth Columbus Day shall be known to the world as "Those Dead People Day" _________________ "Veni. Vedi. Spooki." - Julius Caesar
I came. I saw. I spooked.
From this day forth Columbus Day shall be known to the world as "Those Dead People Day"
No, Spooky. Halloween is the day when the dead walk among and terrorize the living.
Wed Oct 15, 2003 1:11 am
Spookmonkey
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject:
Thing is, halloween actually has signifigance religiously. Well, if we can't use Dead People Day, how about Rape History Day?
By the way, calling it Indiginous Peoples Day makes no sense whatsoever unless your one of them. _________________ "Veni. Vedi. Spooki." - Julius Caesar
I came. I saw. I spooked.
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